thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480 
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Post by thelat on Jun 7, 2017 4:06:15 GMT
I have seen a lot of people dismissing Kreoss2, mostly due to the increase in anti-infantry power and options, but I think this guy needs a closer look, partly from the theme force, but mostly from an ability he picked up:
That's big. So long as you get the kill with your charge or counter-charge, the next line of troops gets to charge again. This can chain an absurd number of times, particularly with Vengers at the back line. Then there's the feat. Inviolable Resolve isn't going to protect against direct fire, but it does a lot to prevent blast damage. Sacrosanct helps set up the counter-charge and subsequent charges.
So, let's talk about Kreoss2.
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Post by Swampmist on Jun 7, 2017 4:44:50 GMT
His issue is that tactician doesn't help deliver exemplar. they hit plenty hard if they can make it, but without someone like Vindictus or Harby you usually can't apply enough models to your target to get work done.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jun 7, 2017 5:16:18 GMT
His issue is that tactician doesn't help deliver exemplar. they hit plenty hard if they can make it, but without someone like Vindictus or Harby you usually can't apply enough models to your target to get work done. What about using his warjack points to bring Vigilants and other protective warjacks? Or just throw 3 Crusaders in the way and lead with those. |
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Ryilan
Guild Master 
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 7, 2017 8:46:21 GMT
At that point you have to ask yourself, why would i not want to use a caster with which i don't have to spend my WJP to protect my troops? Vindy is pretty much the perfect warcaster for them as stated previously. True Path + Feat = Much Exemplar applied to face. Harbinger has Martyrdom and Crusader's call for them. High Reclaimer has his feat, which gives them a non-linear speed bump and means you only need to keep one alive. Tactician is an interesting ability to have, sure, but it's not really something that will help out alot compared to what the other casters bring.
People don't use Vigilants to deliver units, they use them to either be an annoying arm 21+ light jack for scenario pressure or to protect their warcaster. Don't forget that the models have to be in B2B contact te become immune to blast, which not only makes it a bit clunky to move, but also opens you up for some nasty spray attacks due to being clumped up, which their roadblock ability also does not protect them from.
Crusader's are slower than the slow troops they are being a wall for. Plus, if you tie them up in combat, they can't move, which means your troops are now stuck behind that wall and unable to do anything. Not to mention the slams and spray attacks.
I think that using Errants and Vengers would work best with K2 if you are deadset on using him. Inviolable resolve on the Vengers to deliver them, Sacrosant on the errants (Just don't self-sacrifice them). Combined with his feat they hit like a truck, so while your opponent is busy dealing with them have your KE or Incinerators behind them move up and finish the job.
Ryilan
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 12:02:10 GMT
I want K2 to be good, I really do....but the points have already been made by the posters above. He just doesn't get it done.
there are a FEW good things he can do, though, that no one else can:
Feat wrecks high defense
Feat + KE is 4 dead infantry per exemplar
Sacrosanct errants are....bleh. you effectively lose your minifeat and self sac. The spell is actually best on zealots, but that's just not worth dropping theme IMO.
Actually cares about FOS' bond
Castigate shuts down arc node vectors, forcing casters to make themselves more vulnerable. probably only good for a few things, but huge when it counts.
Inviolable is good on almost anything.
One of our tankier casters: even without the healing thing, he's not exactly a cakewalk to bring down.
the problem is that this is the end the list, and everyone else's is either bigger, or the bullets matter more. Often both.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 7, 2017 13:12:02 GMT
People seem to be really focused on the exemplar theme with him, for obvious reasons, but is there maybe better play in Guardians of the Temple? Inviolable resolve on temple flameguard to lead the way at def 15 arm 22 on mini feat turn against charges and then swap sacrosanct onto them once engaged. Cleansers bat cleanup on anything knocked down by sacrosanct. After engagement IR gets swapped to to a tanky warjack. The feat would be awesome for daughters and flameguard. conflictchamber.com/#c2201b_-0c0A1U2fdY3S3B2_2MdS2P3R2K2LProtectorate Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Guardians of the Temple (Kreoss 2) Grand Exemplar Kreoss [+28] - Crusader [10] - Fire of Salvation [16] - Indictor [15] Nicia, Tear of Vengeance [0(5)] Wrack [1] Choir of Menoth (min) [4] Daughters of the Flame [10] Flame Bringers (max) [17] Flameguard Cleansers (max) [15] - Flameguard Cleanser Officer [0(4)] Temple Flameguard (max) [11] - Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard [4] |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 13:25:39 GMT
Guardians has a hitting power issue and the Grand Gangster won't help. I'm extremely hesitant to play it without some sort of damage buff (feoras 1 and 3(2 can swing it with HoJ and cleansers I guess), Reznik 1, malekus with a cleanser build, sevvy 1), a slip-through assassination vector (Thyra, Testament), or some heavy duty attrition buffs(Testament again, certain sevvy 1 builds, certain kreoss 1 builds, Harbinger).
In fact, K2 is one of the last I'd bring.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 7, 2017 13:28:34 GMT
You don't think those three heavies can get it done vs armor? I'm not talking about dropping this into Baldur2 or Khador jack spam but anywhere else it should get the job done.
Remember that fire of salvation is clearing upkeeps on a hit and the indictor don't care about arcane shield.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 13:40:34 GMT
You don't think those three heavies can get it done vs armor? I'm not talking about dropping this into Baldur2 or Khador jack spam but anywhere else it should get the job done. Remember that fire of salvation is clearing upkeeps on a hit and the indictor don't care about arcane shield. Their POW is fine. In my experience, their delivery not so much. Lets try to put this into something a bit more specific. Which factions would you expect to drop this list into? |
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 7, 2017 14:02:16 GMT
Feat + KE is 4 dead infantry per exemplar If the UA is still alive, which with K2 you don't really have the means to guarantee. Sacrosanct errants are....bleh. you effectively lose your minifeat and self sac. The spell is actually best on zealots, but that's just not worth dropping theme IMO. If by mini-feat you mean the one from the Errants UA, i would ask why when playing K2 you are further handicapping yourself by wasting 4 points  And yes, you can't self sacrifice while wanting to gain the benefits from sacrosanct. Self-sacrifice is not going to be usefull every time, neither is Sacrosanct. Errants in theme are however the best target for it, since they will eat the alpha anyway. Ryilan |
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 7, 2017 14:31:03 GMT
Feat + KE is 4 dead infantry per exemplar If the UA is still alive, which with K2 you don't really have the means to guarantee. Sacrosanct errants are....bleh. you effectively lose your minifeat and self sac. The spell is actually best on zealots, but that's just not worth dropping theme IMO. And yes, you can't self sacrifice while wanting to gain the benefits from sacrosanct. Self-sacrifice is not going to be usefull every time, neither is Sacrosanct. Errants in theme are however the best target for it, since they will eat the alpha anyway. Ryilan because it comes free if you took the seneschal, the banner is a free self sac and good hang-back target for receiving the buff, and the officer himself is not a bad combat model. List building in this theme is a bit weird anyway, mixing 9, 5, 16, 4, and 20 point squads and models. I have a static exemplar list of: choir, min errants, ua, senny(free) Vengers max KE, ua(free) KE, au(free) KES It's based on model ownership though, that's pretty much every exemplar I have except some cinerators who just don't fit quite right no matter how I build it. one more KES, or the cinerator ua/senny release, and thy're in instead of errants. |
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 7, 2017 14:56:44 GMT
If the UA is still alive, which with K2 you don't really have the means to guarantee. If by mini-feat you mean the one from the Errants UA, i would ask why when playing K2 you are further handicapping yourself by wasting 4 points And yes, you can't self sacrifice while wanting to gain the benefits from sacrosanct. Self-sacrifice is not going to be usefull every time, neither is Sacrosanct. Errants in theme are however the best target for it, since they will eat the alpha anyway. Ryilan because it comes free if you took the seneschal, the banner is a free self sac and good hang-back target for receiving the buff, and the officer himself is not a bad combat model. List building in this theme is a bit weird anyway, mixing 9, 5, 16, 4, and 20 point squads and models. I have a static exemplar list of: choir, min errants, ua, senny(free) Vengers max KE, ua(free) KE, au(free) KES It's based on model ownership though, that's pretty much every exemplar I have except some cinerators who just don't fit quite right no matter how I build it. one more KES, or the cinerator ua/senny release, and thy're in instead of errants. I would not take the senechal either. It's again simply not worth the points. As for a free point target, the KE Senechal, KE UA, Bastion Senny and Vassals are my preffered choices. With at best three things to take for free, the errant UA + Senechal don't even come close to being picked by me. The problem with the UA + Senechal is they don't add anything to why i would use the errants with K2. Purity is bleh, Assault is for something i don't use them for and Unyielding with 0.5" reach is bleh. Plus, KE Senechal autohit slam on feat turn is awesome. So i would use two of them for free at the very least. Ryilan |
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 7, 2017 15:11:00 GMT
You don't think those three heavies can get it done vs armor? I'm not talking about dropping this into Baldur2 or Khador jack spam but anywhere else it should get the job done. Remember that fire of salvation is clearing upkeeps on a hit and the indictor don't care about arcane shield. Their POW is fine. In my experience, their delivery not so much. Lets try to put this into something a bit more specific. Which factions would you expect to drop this list into? It would crap all over Fyana2 and most of legion in general. Any infantry based list barring ghost fleet would be a good fight. Any list that has medium levels of armor ignoring armor buffs since this list won't care about buffs. Lets be honest though we're not building tournament worthy lists here. If that was the case I think we can generally accept that K2 isn't your man. |
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Post by greytemplar on Jun 7, 2017 17:08:42 GMT
As mentioned, his issue is that he cannot actually deliver Exemplar. His old theme at least gave them an extra 7 inches of threat, as well as taking more of them. But even then it was middling in power level.
He basically does the thing that Exemplar don't have trouble with(damage output) and not the thing that they do have trouble with(getting across the table).
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Post by WIbblet on Jun 7, 2017 19:29:57 GMT
It isn't annoying how much I want KE to cost 10 points in all these theme lists.. the 9 is a bloody nightmare
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