spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588 
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Post by spideredd on Jun 4, 2017 17:55:58 GMT
So, Now that I've (finally) finished painting my Devout and I have a fully painted Vigilant, I was thinking, we have two great defensive 'jacks that serve very different defensive roles.
What do you prefer with which caster and why?
For example:
Personally, I prefer the Devout with Durst because an ARM 22 Shield Guard is great.
But I prefer the Vigilant with pSevvy so that he has mobile cover (It takes him up to DEF 18.). He also already has spell ward, so that bit of kit on the Devout seems to be a little redundant to me.
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Post by Mydnight on Jun 4, 2017 22:42:26 GMT
Devout also doubles as a late game combat piece (Mat 7, pwr 13), so in general devout. If I'm worried about too much shooting, then I also bring rhoven n co. Vigilant works great but pretty much does nothing else.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 4, 2017 22:53:38 GMT
Also consider that the vigilant would be more desirable if the caster is very low armor for the protection from boosted blast damage.
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d3z
Junior Strategist
Posts: 129
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Post by d3z on Jun 5, 2017 1:45:49 GMT
I only have enough games to comment with a few casters:
Devout:
Reznik2 - Spell immunity on him is important.
Durant2 - Personal preference, I like the jack with better punch.
Vinny - Devout or neither.
Vigilant:
Sev1 - For the same reasons as OP.
Sev2 - Sev2 has a means to make himself spell immune if necessary, and the Vigilant adds well to that Arcane Ward for a total of DEF 20 + spell immune.
Durst - Pushes DEF to 19. 19/20 if Decel is up is not going to get shot at.
Both:
Harby - needs both to survive as far forward as she needs to play these days.
Amon - I find myself taking both when in theme. The vigilant would be my choice if I had to pick one, as it skews the DEF (20) and can run to be an ARM 23 tarpit with fortify if you face no shooting/magic threat.
Neither:
HR
Thyra
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Post by badmunkey on Jun 5, 2017 4:41:05 GMT
Interesting discussion. Both are surprisingly good, but fill way different roles.
Feora 3 - vigilant. The spell hate on the devout is nice, but I've found she dies way too quick to gunlines even with a shield guard or two, whereas the granted cover from the vigilant is amazing and in place no matter how many times she's been shot at. Both are good with her, but I'll take the vigilant if pressed.
Sevy 1 - yup. Same.
Sevy 2 - going to slightly disagree with the post above. I've found Arcane ward to be strictly useful on the old guy only in certain late game situations. The spell hate from the devout allows you to put it in a key unit/jack and keep them safe.
Vinnie - yup. Neither or devout.
Durst - both. Cover combined with the spell hate is great on the potato.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 5, 2017 21:48:46 GMT
My opinions for all our casters (warning: opinions incoming!):
Durst: Devout yes. Vigilant yes if you want, but not for himself: it pumps his heavies to DEF 16 and then is an excellent hand off for his feat.
Feora 1: Devout yes, Vigilant no. Her feat should do away with most volume related stuff, so stick with the one that can deflect a high-grade shot or two.
Feora 2: ARM 19 means we don't really fear blast damage or low POW. Devout.
Feora 3: Vigilant, see above posts.
Kreoss 1: If you must, Vigilant. but really neither, put the points towards winning the game on feat turn.
Kreoss 2: Vigilant. Castigate means a devout is near worthless as any caster that gets close enough, with LOS, to cast at Kreoss directly probably should have been dead a turn ago.
Kreoss 3: Harder to say, but probably a devout simply because he, like most cavalry casters, needs to be moving to do his thing properly and the devout can do most of it's job from behind.
Sevvy 1: IMO neither, add a point and get another arc node instead. Use distance as your shield, not a warjack. as he's spell immune already, a Vigilant if you absolutely must.
Sevvy 2: Devouts that shield guard then oracular are mean. Take one even if you let it run ahead.
Harbinger: Vigilant. Swap the devout with some living shield guards, Rhoven or even Vilmon if you're strapped for points/ don't have the models. Handle the spell stuff with the book and melee ranges for arc nodes.
Amon: He's good, but even his abs don't like shrapnel. Take a vigilant, but with his spell list both can honestly work. A troll list would be just devout spam, and use defensive strike to build synergy chains and devastate melee opponents on both turns.
Reznik 1: Vigilant or nothing. Dare the opponent to trigger witch hound with a spell. If it's that dangerous, vortex.
Reznik 2: Always camp a focus, take a Devout, Madeline, and plunk him down center field while staring your opponent dead in the eyes. Snort if you can. Then watch as absolutely nothing ever targets him.
High Reclaimer: Vigilant, if either of the two. Soul storm will do much of what defensive strike would accomplish in my experience. He probably want Rhoven instead though.
Testament: Again, probably neither. Testy in particular usually needs the jacks for extra arm cracking. Bonus points for FOS + a heavy for two righteous vengeance warjacks.
Malekus: Ashen veil means that most of the time, a vigilant is only +2 instead of +4. Take a Devout, which can take a late game ignite and open fire for great effect.
Tristan 2: neither, just make a jack wall and have one be a Templar. Again, if you must, probably a Vigilant as most of what would rech him is likely drifting blast.
Thyra: Stealth will accomplish most of what you need, but a Vigilant will protect her from blast damage.
Vindictus: Neither, just keep his troops in the way. Devout if you must take one.
So the total score is:
Devout:7
Vigilant:5
Both: not a top recommendation for anyone
Neither:7
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 6, 2017 3:35:51 GMT
Gonna disagree on Tristan2, I like having a Devout with him for the following reasons:
1) it's a cheap jack. This makes it easier to hit the desired 7 jacks, and saves points to either take more support, or upgrade jacks
2) with Manifest Destiny, it's still decent in combat, unlike the Vigilant.
3) Jack wall only lasts so long, and if you get a decent feat turn, your opponent is going to be looking for an assassination. I feel the Devout is better at stopping these kinds of last-effort kills.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 6, 2017 11:37:51 GMT
Interesting ideas: I confess to only having played him once, found him to be worse than amon but use the same lists, and moved on...But that one game I didn't take either defensive jack, and after feat turn actually had him back off. He gains no benefit whatsoever from having enemies covered by his control range, so if you can keep the jacks at the edge and enemies beyond them, it's going to be quite hard to reach him.
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Post by streetpizza on Jun 6, 2017 13:05:21 GMT
Interesting ideas: I confess to only having played him once, found him to be worse than amon but use the same lists, and moved on...But that one game I didn't take either defensive jack, and after feat turn actually had him back off. He gains no benefit whatsoever from having enemies covered by his control range, so if you can keep the jacks at the edge and enemies beyond them, it's going to be quite hard to reach him. I don't play Tristan anything like I play Amon. For Tristan I focus on the high armor jacks and play a very tanky game. Devouts, Templars, Indictors and the Avatar all have game with Mr. T and then I add on two Dervishes as bait pieces to make use of enliven. When you can leverage inviolable resolve to those shield jacks opponents have a really hard time removing them. Bonus points for the fact that they're shield guards. Just don't play it into Khador jack spam or the new Cryx bane spam lists and you'll be fine. |
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 6, 2017 16:27:11 GMT
Interesting ideas: I confess to only having played him once, found him to be worse than amon but use the same lists, and moved on...But that one game I didn't take either defensive jack, and after feat turn actually had him back off. He gains no benefit whatsoever from having enemies covered by his control range, so if you can keep the jacks at the edge and enemies beyond them, it's going to be quite hard to reach him. I don't play Tristan anything like I play Amon. For Tristan I focus on the high armor jacks and play a very tanky game. Devouts, Templars, Indictors and the Avatar all have game with Mr. T and then I add on two Dervishes as bait pieces to make use of enliven. When you can leverage inviolable resolve to those shield jacks things opponents have a really hard time removing them. Bonus points for the fact that they're shield guards. Just don't play it into Khador jack spam or the new Cryx bane spam lists and you'll be fine. Yep to all. Specifically, I take 2 Templars (ARM 21 + Shield Guard to stop drags/assassination shots), 2 Indictors (ARM 21 + blessed magical weapon to deal with incorporeal/buffs), 2 Castigators (Combustion + Ashen Veil to prevent being jammed by infantry), 1 Devout and support in the jack theme list (can't remember name). Most lists aren't equipped to deal with 6 Heavy jacks at ARM19-23 (depending on where Inviolable Resolve is), and so will probably only destroy 1-2 heavy jacks before Tristan can feat, at which point you get to wreck face with 4-5 fully loaded, Manifest Destiny'd heavies. |
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