gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Mar 8, 2017 13:52:48 GMT
So I find myself struggling to compete against other lists from every other faction that use warnouns. Our heavies have worse defenses, more pillows, and cost more. I feel like we can do OK against Circle and Cryx with our flying heavies, but our land sharks are the only options we have for the rest, yet they feel out classed at every turn. So: what do you do?
I feel like I'm order to really work to Legion strengths, we should be trying to make good use of Eyeless Sight, Pathfinder, and Hellmouths. But I don't see any good ways to get clouds for Eyeless Sight, nor any ways at all to make rough terrain. Which leaves me with the Hellmouth, which thanks to Widowmakers etc seem to be out-teched in every list.
There are some caster specific ways to out threat with our heavies, but thanks to their pillows and costs, it feels like I struggle to trade my 19 point for their 10-12.
So how do you make our beasts successfully trade with enemy lists? Or have you simply moved on to using Swordsmen in all your lists?
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Post by necromeat on Mar 8, 2017 14:42:53 GMT
The answer is to play Cephalyx. Forever.
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Post by Garryth on Mar 8, 2017 18:22:14 GMT
It all depends on the kind of lists you are facing.
Are you facing spam lists with 6-8 cheap heavies that can oneround a legion heavy. Amon, Vlad1 maurauder spam ect..
Then the answer is simple. You can't trade with those lists. Even if you get the alpha, those jacks are so cheap you can't trade. Answer to those kind of lists are weaponmasters with buffs which we luckily have. Things to get those heavies to our weaponmasters aka Hellmouth unit.
We have swordsmen and casters with buffs are Thags1, Kallus1 and Fyanna2. Kallus2 with battlelust could work too.
If you're facing lists with 4-5 heavies that are somewhat equal to the pointcost to ours. Lets say they have jacks/beasts of around 14-15points, since those aren't spammable you can actually try to trade if you can get the alpha or have some sort of defensive tech.
Abby2, Vayl2, Thags2 all have tools to fight such lists. Damage buffs and/or threat ranges. Twins with WE&SJ can handle that number of jacks aswell.
And if all things fail you can always try to fight them like PP intended Legion to fight... Assassination.... However... they are releasing alot of models or themes that make it too easy to stop any sort of assassination. Kingmakers and sackpawn all over the place tends to make things hard.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Mar 9, 2017 3:50:52 GMT
Garryth has it right, that's the best post I've seen on this site so far. You can't fight fair against Khador and similar Factions, you need to try a different route than heavy vs. heavy.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 9, 2017 4:02:27 GMT
You don't.
We lost Refuge, but Vayl1's feats and Thagrosh2's feats still allow you to go in, cut stuff up, and escape again. Legion needs to use terrain and mobility to get the alpha while also positioning such that it's very hard to retaliate against them.
I've gone up against the pre-nerf khador 'jackspam and won. I did it by explicitly not trading, but by hobbling the list, picking things off, and always maneuvering to deny as many lines of attack as possible. The first game I tried it in, I managed to prevent my opponent from making any attacks until his forth turn, though a mix of crippling his own heavies and hiding behind them and terrain features. We don't have numbers behind us. What we DO have is pathfinder, flight, and threat range. Consider going second where possible and picking table sides specifically for the purpose of planning your turns around taking advantage of terrain and using it against your opponent.
Outside of that, Legion has always been able to roll out very promising assassination runs in many of our lists. It doesn't matter how many 'jacks they have if their caster is dead.
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 11, 2017 5:31:43 GMT
so, this topic made me realize something: Soldiers+Hex Hunters with bayal have a pretty cool synergy to cheat trades. If a soldier can take out a cortex, then the hexhunters can shadowbind the jack and it cannot shake said shadowbind because it doesn't have a cortex at the start of the opponents turn. If the thing you are binding doesn't have reach, the soldier can be safe from retaliation. Also works with Zuriel.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on Mar 11, 2017 6:51:47 GMT
Yeah you can do the same sort of thing with Lylyth3. Pop feat, stationary a bunch of jacks and then cut out as many Cortexes as possible. Honestly you don't even need to cripple the Cortex in order to massively mess with jacks - being both Stationary and Shadowbound costs 2 out of a possible 3 Focus to shake both effects which leaves them on very little.
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 11, 2017 6:53:39 GMT
My only issue with... everyone but kryssa and bethayne really is the lack of concealment to deliver the Hunters. It's why I'm very much considering using Kryssa with them in theme and just trying to alpha jam jack-heavy lists out of scenario. Do you think that the lack of delivery tech is an issue for Lylyth3?
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Post by neutralyze on Mar 11, 2017 6:57:05 GMT
You can piece trade heavies. You have to start by getting one heavy for yours. In the process you have to make them over dedicate multiple heavies to kill it and then you can take those two. I don't get how legion isn't this piece trading faction.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 11, 2017 7:17:25 GMT
so, this topic made me realize something: Soldiers+Hex Hunters with bayal have a pretty cool synergy to cheat trades. If a soldier can take out a cortex, then the hexhunters can shadowbind the jack and it cannot shake said shadowbind because it doesn't have a cortex at the start of the opponents turn. If the thing you are binding doesn't have reach, the soldier can be safe from retaliation. Also works with Zuriel. Seems legit. My Thagrosh2 list works based on gutting cortexes and escaping with the feat then counter-jamming with solos and lights. If I take that same list idea into Oracles, I could use hex hunters instead, possibly to better results. Actually, an important consideration here too is that this would actually work against warbeasts as well. No spirit during the start of your opponent's turn means no shaking, even if they heal it later on.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 11, 2017 7:22:29 GMT
You can piece trade heavies. You have to start by getting one heavy for yours. In the process you have to make them over dedicate multiple heavies to kill it and then you can take those two. I don't get how legion isn't this piece trading faction. I don't understand. Why would they over-commit against us? Legion beasts usually aren't too durable, and the ones that often are a nuisance to remove like Neraphs and Angelius can't usually fire back hard enough anyways.
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Post by Swampmist on Mar 11, 2017 7:39:11 GMT
so, this topic made me realize something: Soldiers+Hex Hunters with bayal have a pretty cool synergy to cheat trades. If a soldier can take out a cortex, then the hexhunters can shadowbind the jack and it cannot shake said shadowbind because it doesn't have a cortex at the start of the opponents turn. If the thing you are binding doesn't have reach, the soldier can be safe from retaliation. Also works with Zuriel. Seems legit. My Thagrosh2 list works based on gutting cortexes and escaping with the feat then counter-jamming with solos and lights. If I take that same list idea into Oracles, I could use hex hunters instead, possibly to better results. Actually, an important consideration here too is that this would actually work against warbeasts as well. No spirit during the start of your opponent's turn means no shaking, even if they heal it later on. Also very true. Plus, Typhon can fish for crit ptches to combine with the knockdown to force the opponent to use 2 to shake (assuming they have a cortex left.) My thought is to do it under Kryssa where they can be easily prowled and a full unit of swords+azreal can act ss a beta strike, but both seem like they would work well. If only we could take Hexs and Grot Assassins together in a theme, because grevious just makes this feel dirty. Actually, now that I think about it, bloodseers can use the Scythean animus to do it... hmmmmm...
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Post by neutralyze on Mar 11, 2017 15:37:02 GMT
You can piece trade heavies. You have to start by getting one heavy for yours. In the process you have to make them over dedicate multiple heavies to kill it and then you can take those two. I don't get how legion isn't this piece trading faction. I don't understand. Why would they over-commit against us? Legion beasts usually aren't too durable, and the ones that often are a nuisance to remove like Neraphs and Angelius can't usually fire back hard enough anyways. That's how you win games. You have to put the opponent in a tight spot to make it happen. If they do make it happen, now those models are Out of position and have no bearing on the other side of the table, or any other pocket fights you have going on. Legion picks and chooses their battles, it's how we win. Now you tack on spells and abilities and it can get harder for the opponent. Cloak of ash typhon or zuriel. Saeryn feared heavy, spiny growth, forced evolution Angelius. You're not going in without buffs all the time and neither is the opponent. It's about how you make it happen. Also, neraphs have sprint, the ultimate ability for getting away or pulling opponent out of position to destroy it.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on Mar 11, 2017 15:42:17 GMT
I don't understand. Why would they over-commit against us? Legion beasts usually aren't too durable, and the ones that often are a nuisance to remove like Neraphs and Angelius can't usually fire back hard enough anyways. That's how you win games. You have to put the opponent in a tight spot to make it happen. If they do make it happen, now those models are Out of position and have no bearing on the other side of the table, or any other pocket fights you have going on. Legion picks and chooses their battles, it's how we win. Now you tack on spells and abilities and it can get harder for the opponent. Cloak of ash typhon or zuriel. Saeryn feared heavy, spiny growth, forced evolution Angelius. You're not going in without buffs all the time and neither is the opponent. It's about how you make it happen. Also, neraphs have sprint, the ultimate ability for getting away or pulling opponent out of position to destroy it. I understand what you're saying, I think. I'm just not sure how this situation would be forced when your opponent generally shouldn't need to overcommit. Could you give an example?
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Post by neutralyze on Mar 11, 2017 18:14:12 GMT
That's how you win games. You have to put the opponent in a tight spot to make it happen. If they do make it happen, now those models are Out of position and have no bearing on the other side of the table, or any other pocket fights you have going on. Legion picks and chooses their battles, it's how we win. Now you tack on spells and abilities and it can get harder for the opponent. Cloak of ash typhon or zuriel. Saeryn feared heavy, spiny growth, forced evolution Angelius. You're not going in without buffs all the time and neither is the opponent. It's about how you make it happen. Also, neraphs have sprint, the ultimate ability for getting away or pulling opponent out of position to destroy it. I understand what you're saying, I think. I'm just not sure how this situation would be forced when your opponent generally shouldn't need to overcommit. Could you give an example? The most basic example would be thags1 taking one heavy with typhon and having the opponent have to commit 2 heavies to kill it. Zuriel with elusive is a giant liability. If you miss one attack he is gone unless you're b2b with him. Jacks are way better to force these trades with due to their focus mechanic. You pay 1 to charge and based on what weapons it is and if they charge for free or get all their weapons in. Angels are also rough for opponents due to defense 14. Anything making opponents waste focus or fury boosting to hit lowers their attacks. 7's is average and mat7 will hit angels on average. I've played too many games where I missed 6's early every attack. I'll look through some of my games that are posted and give see if I can find an example to show you what I mean. I know what you're saying. Our beasts are highly priced while everything else seems lower priced in comparison. So piece trading seems to be off the table because we lose points instead of gain the upper hand.
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