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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 4, 2017 7:50:39 GMT
Use buy or Boost peopleAn Ironclad Vs Ironclad: 22% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Crusader with Choir Vs Ironclad: 36% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Crusader Without Choir Vs Ironclad: 11% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Guardian With Choir Vs Ironclad: 53% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Crusader with Choir Vs Slayer: 35% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Guardian With Choir Vs Slayer: 55% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Juggernaut Vs Ironclad: 36% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Juggernaut Vs Slayer: 44% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus So yeah, your paying 50% more for 10-20% better odds. How worthwhile it is is your choice.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 193
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Post by moquan on Jun 4, 2017 9:54:56 GMT
Increasing your OTK percentages also means you will have a higher chance of crippling systems and that is worth a lot. telmerandYou play a lot versus Khador and don't value the Vigilant? Into Khador I find it basically mandatory. It is guaranteed cover versus the all their longrange shooting. Hiding behind lights and heavies from arcing fire means you are within blast range. The vigilant also solves that.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on Jun 4, 2017 10:22:00 GMT
I am surprised to see opinions that Ashen Veil is useless! I think it is great for two reasons other posters seem to ignore.
First, and most important, it applies not only to the jack but also to things around it. Keep it close to your caster (not unusual, casters often hide behind jacks) and it will be not that easy for enemy living models to avoid it. When caster's DEF jumps to 16/17 before other possible modifiers, assassination stops being a good option. Defending infantry and solos, especially high DEF ones is also a thing. For example try Nicia/Pyrrhus in theme when she gets not only immunity to blast damage b2b with an Ashen Veil jack, but also DEF 17 vs living, unless they are able to maneuver to avoid the Veil.
Secondly, it stacks in melee. I love Ashen Veil jacks with the Harbinger or with defensive spells or standing in a defensive position behind obstacles. DEF 14 when you also have ARM 19 is a tough nut to crack for warbeasts or infantry. If still in doubt, try Eye of Truth with Defender's Ward against your local Hordes/Cephalyx player.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 4, 2017 16:12:16 GMT
I am surprised to see opinions that Ashen Veil is useless! I think it is great for two reasons other posters seem to ignore. First, and most important, it applies not only to the jack but also to things around it. Keep it close to your caster (not unusual, casters often hide behind jacks) and it will be not that easy for enemy living models to avoid it. When caster's DEF jumps to 16/17 before other possible modifiers, assassination stops being a good option. Defending infantry and solos, especially high DEF ones is also a thing. For example try Nicia/Pyrrhus in theme when she gets not only immunity to blast damage b2b with an Ashen Veil jack, but also DEF 17 vs living, unless they are able to maneuver to avoid the Veil. Secondly, it stacks in melee. I love Ashen Veil jacks with the Harbinger or with defensive spells or standing in a defensive position behind obstacles. DEF 14 when you also have ARM 19 is a tough nut to crack for warbeasts or infantry. If still in doubt, try Eye of Truth with Defender's Ward against your local Hordes/Cephalyx player. I tend to not put Defender's Ward on jacks, simply because I haven't been running casters with Defender's Ward recently. So my general experience with Ashen Veil is that it bumps DEF from 10 to 12, which increases likelihood of missing by about 15-20%. Not insignificant, but don't expect it to keep your jack alive. As for helping those around it, sure. But again, can be worked around. It's not awful, just not as wonderful as it initially sounds. Now, if we get a light jack with Ashen Veil, I will become a very happy Menoth player.
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jun 4, 2017 16:13:50 GMT
Use buy or Boost peopleAn Ironclad Vs Ironclad: 22% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Crusader with Choir Vs Ironclad: 36% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Crusader Without Choir Vs Ironclad: 11% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Guardian With Choir Vs Ironclad: 53% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Crusader with Choir Vs Slayer: 35% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Guardian With Choir Vs Slayer: 55% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Juggernaut Vs Ironclad: 36% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus Juggernaut Vs Slayer: 44% OTK (One Turn Kill), with Charge and 2 Focus So yeah, your paying 50% more for 10-20% better odds. How worthwhile it is is your choice. Oh my god, why did I not know about this site?!? Would have saved me SO MUCH TIME!
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 4, 2017 16:18:45 GMT
Oh my god, why did I not know about this site?!? Would have saved me SO MUCH TIME! Just as a Warning whilst it uses MKIII rules, its "ROF" still functions in the MKII way. So if you raise ROF Focus or Fury will automatically be used to buy extra attacks with it. So instead use the ROF rate for "reload".
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 5, 2017 16:50:23 GMT
"Cons - Basically the smallest threat range in the game. It will be getting hit first." As will pretty much any Menoth Jack as we don't have much in the way of speed buffs from things like beastmasters/most every Khador caster/other stuff. As Menoth, I expect to receive the charge pretty often. We don't have terrain gen like Circle/Trolls to forestall charges or other effects. If one assumes all Menoth Jacks are going to receive the charge - Crusader is best hands down. Actually, using more than one thing in your consideration is best, hands down. I submit to you the humble revenger: Few casters truly don't care for an arc node. further, this guy can annoy enemy warjacks by hanging around JUUUUST in their charge range. They never will, because repulsor shield will leave your jack (probably) A-OK while they just deposited a juicy target right on your doorstep. 10 points spent here rather than in a way that will get removed or totally crippled by that same charge (such as a crusader) can be huge.
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Post by gobber on Jun 17, 2017 3:01:23 GMT
Actually, using more than one thing in your consideration is best, hands down. Quoted for truth. Telmerand, you are right that the crusader brings the most brute force value. I play a lot of jackspam (it's all I bring to tournaments) and am generally a player of the same mind. By all means, bring four or five (I highly recommend it). From experience though, whenever you play a list that many opponents can't possible attrition against you'd better have a plan for the inevitable assassination run. Bringing arm/box spam is good as it asks your opponent a question: can you grind down my heavies or get my caster? Crusaders make answering the first half of that difficult; less so the second. This is why once you've already got 4+ crusaders something along the lines of a 2x templar + vigilant package is so valuable; it doesn't sacrifice much on the arm/box front but lets you deal with a far broader range of matchups. Anyhoo, last tournament I lost first place in the final round because even Karchev camping 4 in a trench behind jacks can be shot to death (mags2 galleon, for the record). Protectorate doesn't have anyone that tanky.
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