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Post by Gaston on Mar 8, 2017 13:37:11 GMT
Let's start some actual Minions discussion!
I frequently see people taking Brigands, but seldom see people running Croaks. With the Blindwater theme on the horizon and a fair amount of gator gunline casters (Calaban, Maelok, Barnabas, Jaga-sorta), I have been re-evaluating running the Croak Raiders.
So my question to you all: do you reach for Brigands first, and why or why not?
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Post by Korianneder on Mar 8, 2017 13:43:34 GMT
I bring Croaks with Midas because I like splatter boars and road hogs with him and free boosts on damage rolls give a semblance of fury management. It's usually only a min unit for the oil though. I've also used a unit with Sturm & Drang on occasion because putting polarity shield on and AD unit is better than on a non-AD unit, but even then I've tried commandos in that spot and it's worked about the same. Other then that it's brigands all the way. If the blindwater theme is good then maybe I'll get to use both of my units of croaks again.
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 8, 2017 14:48:45 GMT
Yeah, I prefer my double brigands + warlords with carver for that sweet rat 8 against their target. I usually go solo hunting with them, since pow 14 is usually sufficient to put some hurt on their support.
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Post by MessOfMinions on Mar 8, 2017 15:29:18 GMT
Croaks felt to me that they were always meant to be taken with Farrow even back in mk2, my opinion of that has not changed. That being said, I think Brigands still out class them in just pure survivability, dig in and the defensive buffs they can recieve with every caster but Barnabas makes them much more attractive over croaks. I will say the AD is better on a skirmish unit, so croaks win out there, but unless they get to attack first they die to anything, I see very few instances where I'd take them over Brigands right now, unless the theme force changes them drastically.
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Post by RamsesII on Mar 8, 2017 15:47:22 GMT
I really like the look and play style of the croaks. Unfortunately as mentioned they don't survive long. So I usually bring a witch doctor along for tough. Can make the unit very annoying to deal with if you get some good rolls. I don't have brigands yet but I am interested in picking them up.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 8, 2017 17:56:22 GMT
Well, here is a couple of things I'd toss out regarding survivability:
-I would posit that Dig In on Brigands, while it looks nice on paper, is not a commonly impactful ability. They lost AD, so they generally need to run on Turn 1 to book it into position. Afterwards, they use their actions for shooting and Reform 3" becomes much more important than Dig In.
-I would also posit that the increase from Defense 12 to 13 is more statistically significant on single wound models than the decrease from Arm 14 to 13. Rat 5 is considered an "average", needing 7's on 12 (58%), and 8's on 13 (41%). That one point of defense actually translates into a 20% increase in survival (generously rounding up) versus Rat 5. Given that we have no defensive buffs that affect one unit or the other, things like Def Ward, Cover, Concealment affect both units the same and can be ignored.
One thing to ask: in your last 5 games with Brigands, how much has Dig In mattered? How many Bacon slices has that shovel saved?
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Post by Korianneder on Mar 8, 2017 19:00:18 GMT
Dig in doesn't matter. Never used it a single game in mk3. I don't bring brigands because they're more defensive, I bring them because they're more offensive. Pow 14 against prey is better than boosted pow 10 and doesn't require a shorter range aoe to clip the model. Then add in hog wild on top of that which I have used frequently. Croak raiders need either a unit attachment to help them out or minions need more fire attacks to get more use out of the oil.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 8, 2017 20:49:10 GMT
Pow 14 Prey is good, but the boosted Pow 10 comes out to approximately base Pow 13.5, which is a fairly close margin. I would also say that declaring Prey gives your opponent counter-play in order to deny it to you. So against a non-Prey target, Croaks have a higher base Rat and better accuracy, as well as a higher damage potential because they self buff, no? Are you able to get to your Prey target frequently? Half the time? Less?
Additionally, though the AoE is shorter range, I venture it isn't that hard to get 2" closer to the target, and we also have easy access to Lucky Shot as a faction to bump that AoE up to Rat 8 and to better control the drift. They have semi-synergy together, in that you also can pair the Croaks with Splatter Boars for the free boosted damage on the Pow 14 shot. After that, you'd want something to fix the Rat on the Splatter Boars, so you add in Bokurs for Slamsgiving, or Shamblers for Hand of Glory as well as cloud wall targets. Starts to almost look like a list...
I ain't got nothing for Hog Wild, now that you don't have to Pray for Tough, it is a very, very nice option to have. Also base Pow 12 shooting is dope.
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Post by Korianneder on Mar 8, 2017 21:16:01 GMT
I usually get prey more than half the time. I pray something like a heavy melee model. That way it either stays back and doesn't contribute or it come forward and gets shot in the face. I don't like preying units because they can run one model far back to prevent me getting the bonus.
The higher rat on the croaks is definitely nice, but if I'm pairing them with a splatter boar then I have to bring attack bonuses anyway because splatter boar. I think the croaks best ability is advanced deploy. It basically lets them shoot a turn sooner than brigands.
The worst is the fire type itself. Lots of factions are getting models that totally shut fire down.
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Mar 9, 2017 0:49:15 GMT
My input on it is a consistency of shots and damage. Brigands, even without the prey is 12 shots at pow 12. The croaks, even with the gourds, that means 1 or 2 of them have to gourd so they get 8 boosted pow 10s. That's been the biggest difference to me, because even between 13.5 pow and 12 brigands get 4 more shots, and that's not even including prey.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 9, 2017 2:46:15 GMT
My input on it is a consistency of shots and damage. Brigands, even without the prey is 12 shots at pow 12. The croaks, even with the gourds, that means 1 or 2 of them have to gourd so they get 8 boosted pow 10s. That's been the biggest difference to me, because even between 13.5 pow and 12 brigands get 4 more shots, and that's not even including prey. This is actually why I personally opt for Brigands over Croaks, also because the Brigands have natural pathfinder. The main reason I was bringing up the compare and contrast is that most of the serious Minions lists that I have seen have opted for Brigands when they take a unit at all. I was looking to explore the counter point that the extra Speed, Rat, Defense, and Deployment of the Croaks served as a counter balance to base Pow 12, Prey, and natural Pathfinder of the Brigands. Also the Croaks are cheaper, and have their own natural immunity. I was generally poking around the idea that the Brigands are better versus their Prey targets, but that also gives your opponent forewarning and the ability to counter-play. The Croak Raiders also need assistance to be helpful (Oil Gourd), but their mechanic is self contained and gives your opponent no counter-play. Additionally, if you are running two units, they can cross buff each other, where the Brigands cannot cross the Prey streams. |
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Post by Corrupted Bauer on Mar 9, 2017 4:53:07 GMT
Also the was generally poking around the idea that the Brigands are better versus their Prey targets, but that also gives your opponent forewarning and the ability to counter-play. The Croak Raiders also need assistance to be helpful (Oil Gourd), but their mechanic is self contained and gives your opponent no counter-play. Additionally, if you are running two units, they can cross buff each other, where the Brigands cannot cross the Prey streams. That I am interested in too, the charts of effectiveness cross by that point. Like if you have one unit then brigands, if you do two or more, then croaks. It'll be interesting to see with the theme coming too, since if croaks can count towards free things, suddenly you can bring free witch doctors for the tough and it's just pushing it towards croaks more and more. The only casters I've done croaks with was Barney and helga. Helga was more for fun since it was a gotta go fast with dash list so double croaks and nyss. Barney was just the replace my brigands with them to try, and they still performed. |
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Post by ishruul on Mar 9, 2017 17:29:37 GMT
I like Croak Raiders with witch doctor and Bloody Barnabas. Swamp pit help a lot against ranged list. They work well with Calaban too with parasite to bring down heavies.
Doesn't hurt to bring a Mistspeaker too, help remove those pesky little stormlance.
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Post by Gaston on Mar 10, 2017 3:11:47 GMT
I like Croak Raiders with witch doctor and Bloody Barnabas. Swamp pit help a lot against ranged list. They work well with Calaban too with parasite to bring down heavies. Doesn't hurt to bring a Mistspeaker too, help remove those pesky little stormlance. What is the Mistspeaker bringing to them to help with the Stormlances? |
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Post by ishruul on Mar 10, 2017 16:12:00 GMT
I like Croak Raiders with witch doctor and Bloody Barnabas. Swamp pit help a lot against ranged list. They work well with Calaban too with parasite to bring down heavies. Doesn't hurt to bring a Mistspeaker too, help remove those pesky little stormlance. What is the Mistspeaker bringing to them to help with the Stormlances? When they hide behind those Cygnarian cloudwall. Eyeless sight help, also you can have Jaga-Jaga so no more worries about Arcane Shield. |
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