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Post by perilsensitive on Jun 1, 2017 17:42:02 GMT
Alright - they're the worst of the worst! I recently purchased a unit (because I cannot bear to have a hole in my collection), and I am determined to find a way to use them. I feel like they are missing one more base rule (like Arcing Fire so you could lob shots at squishy back line support, or base pow 10, or... I don't know), but surely PP had something in mind for these guys.
The more obvious starting points are Sev1, Reclaimer, Feora3, and Kreoss1. They can spread out reasonably well to avoid aoe/e-leap thanks to their range, run up a far flank and harass the back line. Beyond that, I don't have a lot of ideas. Help!
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Post by paradox on Jun 1, 2017 18:45:46 GMT
They DO have flat CRA now. So a full unit aiming is RAT13 POW18/14 blast, before anything. That's a pretty solid sniper shot for 13pts, at 16" range. On the move it's RAT11 with a 21" threat. That blast is still a threat to most things too.
Break it to a min unit, or 2x 5 man. Min unit is RAT7 pow14/10 blast. At 7pts that's decent for investment 5-mans are 2x RAT6 pow 13/9 blast.
Compare to a sunburst at 5pts. Min units and 5 mans are slightly more accurate but have less POW, less AoE, and no Fire. On the plus side, it's not a fire-based shot. It's a trade off, but 12/11 is hellaweak stats. If nothing else, give them friggin blast immunity to help that shit.
Id consider trying min and full units as above to see if they help as snipers and chip damage. I DO happen to own 2 full units....
EDIT: to add that at CMD7 they are not great at avoiding leaps while still CRAing effectively.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 1, 2017 19:07:00 GMT
I'll do something properly later, but I actually like deliverers. For their point cost, they're a tad too niche, but used properly they're quite good.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 1, 2017 20:21:38 GMT
I bought them in Mk2. It was the same time I learned about infernal rulings...
Before theme forces took off, I used them with Reclaimer for cheap ranged souls. As they stand now, I guess they can attack warnouns from 16" and up to POW18? It doesn't sound bad on paper, but I don't feel like they do enough to take them. Kreoss1 still loves them for what its worth, but he loves all guns.
I personally think if they brought back their old Rocket Volley rule without the cap they'd be decent ranged infantry killers.
IIRC, you'd get an AoE5 POW16+ AoE4 POW14 or 3 AoE4 POW14s. There weaker than Redeemers due to the lack of boosting, but they're more accurate and damaging base.
Another possibility is to give them Faction some more template attacks. A little off topic, but I wish the Repenter could put down a Fire Wall as a *Attack/Action. Deliverers could put down a wall template within range of the ENTIRE unit and anything that walks in takes a POW8+1 for every member in the unit.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 1, 2017 20:40:13 GMT
I was thinking of a list that was like 5-6 units of delivers. Cause that volume of fire would be disgusting in a 75 point list. Then i remembered that they are fa 2 and cried
Like if they became fa u a list could pack a bunch of accurate pow 18 ranged attacks that can reach out and touch a jack from around 16 inches away. Dass sounds like fun. Like paying 13 point for a 18 pow gun is quite decent. And becomes silly of you could spam it.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 1, 2017 23:52:21 GMT
So, I'm a lot shorter on time than I thought I'd be tonight, but I promised a post. Luckily, just this morning a facebook thread on exactly this topic emerged and I posted something there. So, I'll just plagiarize myself and copy it to here.
See, I've won tournaments with deliverers. I've had people dedicate half their turns to opening up a hole to kill some deliverers. I've removed my opponent's presence from half the board with deliverers in one shot (once, anyway).
There are four main things I've found about the unit that aren't always apparent.
One: NEVER CRA with less than half the unit(it's ok if the target is, say, mcthralls I guess). That's how they become a worse redeemer. We buy redeemers for good aoe's and efficient, boostable scatter. We buy deliverers for accuracy. which brings me to
Two: Assist the trades. The prime target for a deliverer cra is often the next target of your crusader. Again and again we saw the math done: the kill percentages of most Menoth warjacks into most other factions is a tad low. One POW 18 to lead it off can massively change those odds. It shows up particularly well with cryx jacks and warpwolves, where our basic jacks are low MAT and a missed attack is the difference between life and death. Furthermore, by shooting at bigger targets, they become much easier to screen.
Three: Screen your deliverers. They are so squishy that even buffs don't help, and since the RAT is basically the unit's model count, even a few missing is a huge problem. Abuse the 16 inch range, and keep something in between them and the scary stuff.
Four: Keep an eye out for positioning mistakes. The one shot thing at the top of my post? Jakes 1 got too friendly with her defender. I blew her off the field with blast damage, parked the deliverers, and dare Caine to reactivate the defender. Instead he let them have that whole side of the game. Thing is, opponents will make these mistakes because they aren't WTC contenders, and they'll underestimate the accuracy and damage deliverers can do.
To add to my post, on the more dojo side:
I've had the most success with Testament, Harbinger, and Vindictus, as these people can keep the screens alive for extended periods and buy time for shots 3 and 4, which is where they start to really seem painful. From your list, Sevvy can't make them tough enough and + 1 RAT/DMG actually goes farther on errants than delivs used as described. High reclaimer is better off rezzing knights exemplar, without UA they're cheaper. Feora 3 has no decent reason not to take cleansers instead for the points: she should have HOJ anyway, and under incite and fuel the flames they get bonkers. Kreoss 1 removes one of the 2 reasons to take them, accuracy. As such, a redeemer really is better for the points there (bonus for aiming under a marshal and getting 3 16's instead of one 18).
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Post by badmunkey on Jun 2, 2017 4:59:16 GMT
So, I'm a lot shorter on time than I thought I'd be tonight, but I promised a post. Luckily, just this morning a facebook thread on exactly this topic emerged and I posted something there. So, I'll just plagiarize myself and copy it to here. See, I've won tournaments with deliverers. I've had people dedicate half their turns to opening up a hole to kill some deliverers. I've removed my opponent's presence from half the board with deliverers in one shot (once, anyway). There are four main things I've found about the unit that aren't always apparent. One: NEVER CRA with less than half the unit(it's ok if the target is, say, mcthralls I guess). That's how they become a worse redeemer. We buy redeemers for good aoe's and efficient, boostable scatter. We buy deliverers for accuracy. which brings me to Two: Assist the trades. The prime target for a deliverer cra is often the next target of your crusader. Again and again we saw the math done: the kill percentages of most Menoth warjacks into most other factions is a tad low. One POW 18 to lead it off can massively change those odds. It shows up particularly well with cryx jacks and warpwolves, where our basic jacks are low MAT and a missed attack is the difference between life and death. Furthermore, by shooting at bigger targets, they become much easier to screen. Three: Screen your deliverers. They are so squishy that even buffs don't help, and since the RAT is basically the unit's model count, even a few missing is a huge problem. Abuse the 16 inch range, and keep something in between them and the scary stuff. Four: Keep an eye out for positioning mistakes. The one shot thing at the top of my post? Jakes 1 got too friendly with her defender. I blew her off the field with blast damage, parked the deliverers, and dare Caine to reactivate the defender. Instead he let them have that whole side of the game. Thing is, opponents will make these mistakes because they aren't WTC contenders, and they'll underestimate the accuracy and damage deliverers can do. To add to my post, on the more dojo side: I've had the most success with Testament, Harbinger, and Vindictus, as these people can keep the screens alive for extended periods and buy time for shots 3 and 4, which is where they start to really seem painful. From your list, Sevvy can't make them tough enough and + 1 RAT/DMG actually goes farther on errants than delivs used as described. High reclaimer is better off rezzing knights exemplar, without UA they're cheaper. Feora 3 has no decent reason not to take cleansers instead for the points: she should have HOJ anyway, and under incite and fuel the flames they get bonkers. Kreoss 1 removes one of the 2 reasons to take them, accuracy. As such, a redeemer really is better for the points there (bonus for aiming under a marshal and getting 3 16's instead of one 18). I don't want to have to buy these guys. I think I'll just pretend I didn't read this. And pretend I hate the sculpts.... ah crap.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Jun 2, 2017 7:32:29 GMT
Three: Screen your deliverers. They are so squishy that even buffs don't help, and since the RAT is basically the unit's model count, even a few missing is a huge problem. Abuse the 16 inch range, and keep something in between them and the scary stuff. So I was looking over your post and this stuck out to me. What do you recommend as the best screen for Deliverers? Do you suggest Errants, TFG or Zealots (or even daughters when used right)? Or even something else?
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Post by Mydnight on Jun 2, 2017 9:56:46 GMT
What do you recommend as the best screen for Deliverers? Another unit of Deliverers.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Jun 2, 2017 11:18:18 GMT
Three: Screen your deliverers. They are so squishy that even buffs don't help, and since the RAT is basically the unit's model count, even a few missing is a huge problem. Abuse the 16 inch range, and keep something in between them and the scary stuff. So I was looking over your post and this stuck out to me. What do you recommend as the best screen for Deliverers? Do you suggest Errants, TFG or Zealots (or even daughters when used right)? Or even something else? Anything except errants, really. Those guys engage/are engaged by the targets of the delivs too easily, and often for too long. I've screened with zealots, TFG, even monks and cinerators.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on Jun 2, 2017 13:49:25 GMT
- Blah blah blah Deliverer dojo that makes sense blah blah blah - Dang, you might have just given me a reason to paint these guys up. Bookmarked for later, thank you.
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Post by paradox on Jun 2, 2017 16:58:03 GMT
So, I'm a lot shorter on time than I thought I'd be tonight, but I promised a post. Luckily, just this morning a facebook thread on exactly this topic emerged and I posted something there. So, I'll just plagiarize myself and copy it to here. See, I've won tournaments with deliverers. I've had people dedicate half their turns to opening up a hole to kill some deliverers. I've removed my opponent's presence from half the board with deliverers in one shot (once, anyway). There are four main things I've found about the unit that aren't always apparent. One: NEVER CRA with less than half the unit(it's ok if the target is, say, mcthralls I guess). That's how they become a worse redeemer. We buy redeemers for good aoe's and efficient, boostable scatter. We buy deliverers for accuracy. which brings me to Two: Assist the trades. The prime target for a deliverer cra is often the next target of your crusader. Again and again we saw the math done: the kill percentages of most Menoth warjacks into most other factions is a tad low. One POW 18 to lead it off can massively change those odds. It shows up particularly well with cryx jacks and warpwolves, where our basic jacks are low MAT and a missed attack is the difference between life and death. Furthermore, by shooting at bigger targets, they become much easier to screen. Three: Screen your deliverers. They are so squishy that even buffs don't help, and since the RAT is basically the unit's model count, even a few missing is a huge problem. Abuse the 16 inch range, and keep something in between them and the scary stuff. Four: Keep an eye out for positioning mistakes. The one shot thing at the top of my post? Jakes 1 got too friendly with her defender. I blew her off the field with blast damage, parked the deliverers, and dare Caine to reactivate the defender. Instead he let them have that whole side of the game. Thing is, opponents will make these mistakes because they aren't WTC contenders, and they'll underestimate the accuracy and damage deliverers can do. To add to my post, on the more dojo side: I've had the most success with Testament, Harbinger, and Vindictus, as these people can keep the screens alive for extended periods and buy time for shots 3 and 4, which is where they start to really seem painful. From your list, Sevvy can't make them tough enough and + 1 RAT/DMG actually goes farther on errants than delivs used as described. High reclaimer is better off rezzing knights exemplar, without UA they're cheaper. Feora 3 has no decent reason not to take cleansers instead for the points: she should have HOJ anyway, and under incite and fuel the flames they get bonkers. Kreoss 1 removes one of the 2 reasons to take them, accuracy. As such, a redeemer really is better for the points there (bonus for aiming under a marshal and getting 3 16's instead of one 18). Preferences? Min or full? One unit or two? If one big CRA is ideal, does the Arms Master feel like a take? He gives a passive +1 and can give reroll attack/damage, or Arcing Fire to the shooter. 13/12 5 wounds makes him mildly more durable, and his bomb is a handy backup. But here its mainly 3pts for a +1 and optional buff. 16pts for a full unit and him feels hefty. 10pts for min and him might be better.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 2, 2017 17:16:05 GMT
The arcing fire doesn't work like that. Everyone needs to be capable of targeting the model for a cra. If the primary shooter can see the target thanks to arcing fire but the rest of the unit can't they just don't add to the bonus of the cra. You'd get to use it in the small situational case where one member of the unit needs arcing fire so you can get your full +10 bonus. The reroll is the thing you'd use it for the 99% of the time
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Post by paradox on Jun 2, 2017 18:42:02 GMT
The arcing fire doesn't work like that. Everyone needs to be capable of targeting the model for a cra. If the primary shooter can see the target thanks to arcing fire but the rest of the unit can't they just don't add to the bonus of the cra. You'd get to use it in the small situational case where one member of the unit needs arcing fire so you can get your full +10 bonus. The reroll is the thing you'd use it for the 99% of the time I know. That's why it says "arcing fire to the shooter." But with screening models, it can come up more often than you think. Believe me. Even without arcing fire, I worked deliverers in MKII quite a bit. I'm pretty familiar with formation and LOS issues.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Jun 2, 2017 19:39:10 GMT
How about with Feora3?
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