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Post by gordaunikus1 on May 30, 2017 14:05:09 GMT
With more people around me getting over an obsession with playing huge battle groups, I have been running into more list chicken in the following form - I have a list that can deal with huge battle groups (lol or try to) and I have a list that can deal with a fair number of infantry. It might just be a list building thing, but I rarely find that 1 of my lists handles both.
I played plenty in mark 2, but didn't know the game well enough to really compete in tournaments. Assuming this is a common problem that's just coming back around - what are yalls' thoughts on circle, list building, QnA, and list chicken? A more specific question is, how do you approach an opponent bringing 1 jack spam and 1 unit spam? Is this an actual problem?
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Post by gordaunikus1 on May 30, 2017 14:05:39 GMT
Lol and please don't just say sentry stones solve everything. They are awesome, but don't.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 30, 2017 14:41:14 GMT
Given that you're playing Circle, you can usually assume they'll drop their armor skew into you, no matter what your lists are (unless for some reason you have no anti-infantry tech in either list) and that it will probably be a bad time for you regardless. Circle has the tools to easily clean up infantry spam, between casters that just remove huge chunks of infantry from the table, an infantry roster that almost exclusively is dedicated to removing infantry, and sentry stones/night witches etc. which easily fit into lists and which can go through infantry like a hot knife through butter. Conversely, Circle has a very hard time beating a dedicated armor skew, even if the list is teched specifically for armor cracking.
So no, I don't find list chicken to be problem, because jack spam is almost always the correct drop into Circle, which means you can play your anti-armor list with only minimal anti-infantry tech.
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Post by macdaddy on May 30, 2017 14:51:24 GMT
*insert mohsar plug* Hey you know who is great into jack spam and is really good at killing dudes....  Seriously take some purebloods and woldwyrds and loki and boom, you have a solid all rounder mohsar list. Or if you are like me and have a really strange and un-explainable obsession with rocks you can try: Mohsar Bones of Orboros Woldwrath 2 Wyrds Warden Fulcrum Gallows Blacklad wayfarer X2 Stoneshaper 2 Sentry stones Boom, look at all the guns, It really poops on ghost fleet too (RFP and magical shooting and lots of AOE's/sprays to ignore stealth) Ive played it into jack spam and it works surprisingly well! Or if you are feeling extra Balsy you can try: Mohsar Bones of Orboros WW X2 Woldwyrd X2 2 gallows 2 of each blackclad solo shifting stones 10" of pow 10 infantry nope. 2 potential Pow 21 58 box gargantuans, 2 upkeep and animus hating gun platforms that can remove heavy on their own and threat assassination like a boss. Pillars to keep those pesky jamming models away and sprays for days if any do get through to you. I still have testing to do with it but After a game with it I'm already feeling confident |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 30, 2017 15:35:57 GMT
SENTRY STONES- nah, i wouldn't do that.
Circle is faction filled with too much infantry clear. Night witches, Blood weavers, Reeves, even the maligned Tharn all have a way of getting more than one attack out per activation. So dude spam shouldn't be an oppressive problem you are caught without tools for. I think wolf riders can hit up to 5 models in an activation through assault, impact, melee, and quick work. That's pretty crazy, especially when you factor in something like hand of fate, affliction, curse of shadows (I'ma run through you now, have an impact attack, kthxbai), and other blanket spells. So even if you just pick one or two small bits you should be able to handle balanced lists. If you are facing legit dude spam 40-60. Stalkers and Purebloods may be your best tool box options. They can still threat the heavy targets while possibly ruining huge swaths of infantry.
By far the most difficult is armor/box spam. Circle, like others, lost movement shenanigans and it now feels as though everyone else is just as fast. Which isn't completely off base. Ferals still wreck so much when you apply them full force. But you have to get a situation where it can hit more than one target. I, personally, feel two broken jacks are better than one dead one. Broken arms and cortexes mean that yeah, they still get a swing but it's gimped. Where as a fresh and clean jack with walk up and put something in the dirt 95% of the time. Loki is cute, but Proteus does it better. In that logic Hellmouths do it better. I particularly don't see him as a front line. He's a flanking monster. "Oh you're running up the middle, nah come over here and hang out with me. Yep, those charging charging weapon-master wolves. enjoy" You might also want to look into (or proxy) some minions. Dhalia and Skarrath add another tool box against infantry. Slaughter housers are 6 pow 10 finishers for 11 points. Comparable to wolves but likely weapon-masters every turn, takedown for anti-tough/RFP, and tough themselves. Wrong eye and star crossed can always tick people off. Then there's Hutchuk; his rust bomb giving a +2 against warjacks could be big swing in your favor. I'd run him but Legion is the ONLY hordes faction he won't work for...
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Post by jisidro on May 30, 2017 16:17:45 GMT
I don't get how RAT 5 POW 8 are infantry clear... Reeves play because they can do a few powerfull shots not because you are trying to roll 20 bad attacks.
We don't do ok against ARM/Box spam because our cheap beasts are not as cheap, don't present a strong threat and because we depend on primal to get a dmg buff.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 30, 2017 16:38:07 GMT
If only a ranged unit could aim, or cma, or get veteran leader from a reeve hunter to kill a whooping def 13 arm 12. And I know you're going to say that's not the "right" numbers in your mind. But that's the stats of the highest dude spam right now; Crew of the Atramentos. You can tell me that doesn't work, you're welcome to that opinion. But it can. There also still the best infantry clear spell in the game, Affliction, that makes them stupid.
Though I still want to have a Lord of Feast thresher an infantry bubble with the Lightning tendrils spell from Krueger.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on May 30, 2017 16:43:02 GMT
Thanks for feedback. All really good points.
On infantry clearing: feedback was so true. Maybe I missworded my question, but answers made a ton of sense. I have been playing bald1/Moh for a couple months and it's been pretty good. I accidentally dropped bald1 with woldwrath, 2x guardians, Megalith, 1x wyrd, 3x sentry stones, and 4x free models into fyanna with 2 units of swords men and 1 unit of grotesques (not the brain damage sprays). It really wasn't that bad as long as you clear things out before committing woldwrath. Ok so no infantry fear anymore.... bring em.
On list chicken: Maybe my list chicken fear is more about one circle list not answering jack spam and gunline assassinations. Bald1 has been the closest thing for me. I feel like so many lists (legion, Sloan, menoth) ignore stealth that wurmwood is not the best answer.
I'm not convinced that we can't actually deal with jackspam... my issue is that a jackspam list like Mohsar gets owned by a gunline.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on May 30, 2017 17:33:20 GMT
Whoops. Baldur 1 list above doesn't have 3x sentry stones. It has 0 sentry stones. It does have 2x shifting stones.
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Post by macdaddy on May 30, 2017 17:49:51 GMT
You know...that mohsar double wrath build is surprisingly resilient to shooting....c'mon you know you want to try it....
In all seriousness Moh with wolds is actually pretty OK into a combined arms gunline. Particularly double wraths just craps all over ghost fleet and cryx in general.
Regardless I feel like our faction is stuck with having to take a dedicated gunline paring right now. Wurmy, Baldurs, they all have consistent and useful tech into gunlines and taking a paring without them puts you at risk of really bad match ups.
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Post by gordaunikus1 on May 30, 2017 18:45:00 GMT
Yeah I live in fear of gunlines night and day. The good thing is, I feel we can completely shut them down. The bad thing is, that takes up 1 of 2 lists. I think we've identified what I was calling list chicken.
The good that has come from gunlines (from a newer circle players perspective) is that it's given me a reason to explore circles different gunline answers to try to find something that solves multiple problems. So like I was playing wormwood as gunline andddd control (and everything else). Baldur 2 as gunline anddddd super tank. Prime Morvahna as gunline anddddd dood spam. Now playing Baldur 1 as gunline anddddd an attempt to control and steal jacks.
Anyway, so instead of doing the financial reconciliation I've had open on my monitor all day, we have reenforced my fear of gunlines. Thanks crew.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 30, 2017 19:04:09 GMT
You're right in that we really need a hard gunline answer, and unfortunately, many of our gunline drops aren't good into armor (Wurmwood can, but he doesn't tend to run a list that uses a bunch of armor-cracking, but Baldur2 can't really.) Which leads to a very static pairing where you need a list that can handle gunlines, a seperate list that cracks armor, and then you just have to hope that one of those lists can play into control, supertough doomkitties, or any of the other boogeymen out there.
It's part of the reason why I'm taking an extended break from Circle. Too many casters don't fit neatly into either category, and most of the ones that do have fairly constrained list building.
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 8:58:48 GMT
If only a ranged unit could aim, or cma, or get veteran leader from a reeve hunter to kill a whooping def 13 arm 12. And I know you're going to say that's not the "right" numbers in your mind. But that's the stats of the highest dude spam right now; Crew of the Atramentos. You can tell me that doesn't work, you're welcome to that opinion. But it can. There also still the best infantry clear spell in the game, Affliction, that makes them stupid. Though I still want to have a Lord of Feast thresher an infantry bubble with the Lightning tendrils spell from Krueger.
Reeves with Afliction become RAT 7, auto dmg - Not a lot of bad things you can say about that.
Let's follow your example of Revenant crew, no buffs on either side.
It's 8+/5+ to kill - 35% (Across the whole unit, which is kind of a miracle by itself) you get 7.64 kills 2 man CMA - 6+/3+ -70% or 7 kills if you get 10 CMAs.
This is the whole unit shooting against easy infantry to kill. Add Dig (Idrians, Reeves, Trenchers have it) and suddenly you are killing a couple. Let's look at banes and ignore Prowl/Stealth
12/17 - 10% straight shot / 35% 2 man CMA / 53% 3 man CMA
12/16 - 16% straight shot / 49% 2 man CMA / 66% 3 man CMA 12/15 - 24% straight shot / 60% 2 man CMA
Who do you think is going to have more bonuses? Them (armies that take infantry) or Circle in General (Tanith and reeves apart, she REALLY likes them.)?
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