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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 22:06:01 GMT
Depends on what "unplayable piece of trash" is... If unplayable trash is something that is not the best option with at least 1 caster then it's pretty hard to make models... SS shoots 2xPOW 15 that really are 2xPOW 17, gets D3 focus each turn by not aiming and enjoys a lot of immunities. It's a pretty high bar for any shooty jack that comes along. Stop including the firefly in damage calculations to inflate power numbers, it makes your argument unreasonable. I don't think: - Protectorate's jacks need to be balanced with the choir - Cygnar's Jacks need to be balanced assuming arcane shield is on them - Circle's beasts must be balanced around Primal - Skorne's beasts around Rush/Enrage but it's hard to talk about the game without mentioning them, they will be present in most lists and possible in most situations. Do you think SS will be taken without a Firefly? They trade +2 dmg and +2 Hit, sounds like they synergize very well. I took care to mention both POW as they would be when considering both options (SS+Electrical stuff vs imaginary shooty jack competing with SS and whatever synergies he has).
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 31, 2017 22:28:46 GMT
Stop including the firefly in damage calculations to inflate power numbers, it makes your argument unreasonable. I don't think: - Protectorate's jacks need to be balanced with the choir - Cygnar's Jacks need to be balanced assuming arcane shield is on them - Circle's beasts must be balanced around Primal - Skorne's beasts around Rush/Enrage but it's hard to talk about the game without mentioning them, they will be present in most lists and possible in most situations. Do you think SS will be taken without a Firefly? They trade +2 dmg and +2 Hit, sounds like they synergize very well. I took care to mention both POW as they would be when considering both options (SS+Electrical stuff vs imaginary shooty jack competing with SS and whatever synergies he has). Comparing back line support buffs with buffs that require a model to move within 5" is unreasonable to say this is always a factor. Also I will take a storm strider without a firefly, I find fireflies rarely worth it. Storm strider is excellent piece.
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 1, 2017 2:47:05 GMT
Been thinking about this a bit more and I think the Commandoes will have a place with Siege 1 in theme, if they all run into his Foxhole, then they can have cover, stealth, immunity to blast, tough (potential feign death) and rise, could work as a screening unit. I wish they would change foxhole to restrict it to not being able to place on enemy models only, I understand they don't want the old drop the enemy into a Fox hole and shoot their caster in the face, but as it currently is it seems a bit restrictive to your own stuff. Note that it can be happen in MKII but it was not an issue at all. And remember that the models affected by Foxhole does not blocks LOS at all. Actually it is one of the weakness of Trencher Infantry as well - they can survive from the enemy attack by Dig In but they can't protect the others unless pop smoke. Stop including the firefly in damage calculations to inflate power numbers, it makes your argument unreasonable. I don't think: - Protectorate's jacks need to be balanced with the choir - Cygnar's Jacks need to be balanced assuming arcane shield is on them - Circle's beasts must be balanced around Primal - Skorne's beasts around Rush/Enrage but it's hard to talk about the game without mentioning them, they will be present in most lists and possible in most situations. Do you think SS will be taken without a Firefly? They trade +2 dmg and +2 Hit, sounds like they synergize very well. I took care to mention both POW as they would be when considering both options (SS+Electrical stuff vs imaginary shooty jack competing with SS and whatever synergies he has). But in the reality, Protectorate jacks are actually designed to be work with Choir of Menoth, else their warjacks are simply the inferior cheap warjack. Without the compensation like Arcane Shield, poor 12/18 heavy needs more better stats such as SPD 6 and more damage box. I mean, poor Carnivean.... I don't think that Circle beasts are build around Primal, though. Such basic support units are a mandatory choice for the faction and it is sure that it was intended. Also, Storm Strider already enjoys two POW 17 shots with a Firefly, but we didn't do that because it is simply inefficient. Two unboostable POW 17 shots are not worth enough to pay for 26 points. Now it can boost the damage roll and it worth its point, but it does not making Firefly to be auto include either. Its support is good, but not mandatory. And you must also think about the module's increased cost. Although it is not so uncommon to see a Firefly because Journeyman Warcaster needs for one, but he may choose an another jack as well, such as Hunter. Also think about Arcane Tempest Riflemen. With 4 points, one of them can cause 3 damage per turn by 4 points - 6 damage per turn in distance without any other assist, while a same pointed Firefly adds 4 damage with a Storm Strider for one turn before got wrecked. With more Storm stuffs the damage output would be better but it has a limit because the radius of Ionization is 5". So it is depend on the list. Ionization is actually good, but it is not the auto included stuff either. Sometimes you better take a Hunter if you want the maximized alpha strike damage. You better skip it if you want a steady shots as well. And sometimes in the tight list you better take a Hunter rather than a Firefly even with some lightnings. I do think that a Firefly is simply an auto included jack with Dynamo, because it can shoot for four times and always making the module more point efficient. But actually it is not wise to taking a Firefly with only a model with two lightning shots - both Storm Strider and Hurricane - because the module makes fewer damage per points without any other lightning stuffs. Two more damage can cause crippled system more often, though.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 1, 2017 3:17:12 GMT
But in the reality, Protectorate jacks are actually designed to be work with Choir of Menoth, else their warjacks are simply the inferior cheap warjack. As evidenced by............?
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Post by droopingpuppy on Jun 1, 2017 3:38:41 GMT
But in the reality, Protectorate jacks are actually designed to be work with Choir of Menoth, else their warjacks are simply the inferior cheap warjack. As evidenced by............? The stats, and the history of Choir of Menoth. They see the dawnlight of Warmachine, one of the starting Warmachine Prime MKI model, and their main purpose is unchanged - although got nuffed since. Check out the basic stats of the basic melee jacks of Cygnar, Khador and Protectorate. Ironclad has SPD 5, MAT 7, P+S 18, and 12/18 defensive. With 7 points. Juggernaut has SPD 4, MAT 7, P+S 19, and 10/20 defensive. With 7 points. Crusader, has unlikely stats with them. It has SPD 4, MAT 6, P+S 18, and 10/19 defensive. With 6 points. It is slower as a Juggernaut, able to be craked by the ranged attacks before the engagement, and even in close it is likely that charged first without any support. Juggernaut is also able to be gunned down and get charged first, but ARM 20 absorbs more damage, and P+S 19 damage can repay the painful past turns to get the enemy in melee. It is Choir of Menoth that allow them a safe passage to the front of the enemy face, and hits with P+S 20 mighty mace. Only with a Crusader the module is expensive than a Juggernaut, but it is unlikely that you will only use a Crusader but nothing more. Also remember that most heavy warjack's sum of defensive stat is 30, while Protectorate jack is only 29. Why they don't simply has 11/19, like as Centurion chassis? Although such degree of DEF is almost meaningless in the real games, but it suggests that Protectorate jacks are inferior by default, and that's why Choir of Menoth is exists. And it is the faction's trait as well. protectorate is designed as a synergy faction. They are make up the low raw stats by the supports and odd abilities.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 1, 2017 3:49:45 GMT
Also remember that most heavy warjack's sum of defensive stat is 30, while Protectorate jack is only 29. Why they don't simply has 11/19, like as Centurion chassis? Because it's cheaper as a result. The 11/19 Centurion Chasis has less boxes, and like all Cygnarian things generally, has a bunch of doodads to compensate for a lack of raw stats. First of all 12/18 is one of the most common stats for heavies. It's also one of the weakest. Dropping from 11 to 10 actually really doesn't matter in the Grand Scheme of things because the only protection is a 10% difference in defense (Against Mat 5, Against anything even slightly higher its near irrelevant). But your getting points reimbursed for it. However you are correct that 20 Point Armor is a premium, but Khador ends up paying a premium for it, as you demonstrated with the actual points listings. Against an Ironclad Charging with Full Focus, a Crusader will die 18% of the time but a Centurion will die 23% of the time. I also love how you reference MKII in order for the Crusader to be more expensive because in MKIII 2 Jacks is generally a Minimum. Your choices are arbitrary and your math is flawed.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 2, 2017 13:47:11 GMT
Comparing back line support buffs with buffs that require a model to move within 5" is unreasonable to say this is always a factor. Also I will take a storm strider without a firefly, I find fireflies rarely worth it. Storm strider is excellent piece.
You keep overblowing my argument, I said "most lists and possible in most situations". It's a long way from always.
I believe we'll see SS used in conjunction with other electrical themed pieces.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 2, 2017 15:15:08 GMT
Depends on what "unplayable piece of trash" is... If unplayable trash is something that is not the best option with at least 1 caster then it's pretty hard to make models... SS shoots 2xPOW 15 that really are 2xPOW 17, gets D3 focus each turn by not aiming and enjoys a lot of immunities. It's a pretty high bar for any shooty jack that comes along. Stop including the firefly in damage calculations to inflate power numbers, it makes your argument unreasonable. Then stop including Choir with Menoth, and Krielstone with Trollbloods, and...
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luckgod84
Junior Strategist
Cygnar blogger
Posts: 163
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Post by luckgod84 on Jun 2, 2017 17:30:11 GMT
I think it would be pretty cool if Siege2 got an additional dice damage on his first attack after leaping (He is going to have a jump pack the artwork was clear)
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 3, 2017 1:17:45 GMT
Stop including the firefly in damage calculations to inflate power numbers, it makes your argument unreasonable. Then stop including Choir with Menoth, and Krielstone with Trollbloods, and... If you can't see the difference between a back line support model and a front line support model then I don't know what to say except "stop being wrong". Seriously. It's like saying that Terminus has an army damage buff because he -2 from armour within 2" of himself. It's technically correct with no nuance or thought on what that game looks like. Fireflies are ok, they can add +2 damage to electrical attacks, but its very rare that I see the numbers for +2 damage being in excess of a charger shooting (or other options) without throwing away the firefly. Haley 2 can get away with the firefly because of her feat, nemo 3 can do it due to feat and volume of fire, but apart from that I don't see storm strider being in a list with a firefly packaged in it unless it is already there. Strider doesn't need firefly, he is perfectly fine on his own.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 3, 2017 2:44:43 GMT
Then stop including Choir with Menoth, and Krielstone with Trollbloods, and... If you can't see the difference between a back line support model and a front line support model then I don't know what to say except "stop being wrong". Seriously. It's like saying that Terminus has an army damage buff because he -2 from armour within 2" of himself. It's technically correct with no nuance or thought on what that game looks like. Fireflies are ok, they can add +2 damage to electrical attacks, but its very rare that I see the numbers for +2 damage being in excess of a charger shooting (or other options) without throwing away the firefly. Haley 2 can get away with the firefly because of her feat, nemo 3 can do it due to feat and volume of fire, but apart from that I don't see storm strider being in a list with a firefly packaged in it unless it is already there. Strider doesn't need firefly, he is perfectly fine on his own. If the increased damage of having the firefly there causes the target to die, when it otherwise would not have it is not a case of throwing away the firefly it is a trade. Depending on the target possibly a good one. Neither model needs the other to function, but ignoring it as a potential buff (which is really easy to apply) doesnt help much either.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 3, 2017 5:16:08 GMT
If you can't see the difference between a back line support model and a front line support model then I don't know what to say except "stop being wrong". Seriously. It's like saying that Terminus has an army damage buff because he -2 from armour within 2" of himself. It's technically correct with no nuance or thought on what that game looks like. Fireflies are ok, they can add +2 damage to electrical attacks, but its very rare that I see the numbers for +2 damage being in excess of a charger shooting (or other options) without throwing away the firefly. Haley 2 can get away with the firefly because of her feat, nemo 3 can do it due to feat and volume of fire, but apart from that I don't see storm strider being in a list with a firefly packaged in it unless it is already there. Strider doesn't need firefly, he is perfectly fine on his own. If the increased damage of having the firefly there causes the target to die, when it otherwise would not have it is not a case of throwing away the firefly it is a trade. Depending on the target possibly a good one. Neither model needs the other to function, but ignoring it as a potential buff (which is really easy to apply) doesnt help much either. If the increased damage causes the target to die, in general a charger shooting would do the same I find. Killing models isn't hard, killing models without over committing and losing too much return *is* hard, and giving them a free firefly isn't a great start, imo. I just don't like adding firefly as a damage buff willy nilly in dojo because it doesn't represent the game well.
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Post by oncouch1 on Jun 3, 2017 9:20:48 GMT
If the increased damage of having the firefly there causes the target to die, when it otherwise would not have it is not a case of throwing away the firefly it is a trade. Depending on the target possibly a good one. Neither model needs the other to function, but ignoring it as a potential buff (which is really easy to apply) doesnt help much either. If the increased damage causes the target to die, in general a charger shooting would do the same I find. Killing models isn't hard, killing models without over committing and losing too much return *is* hard, and giving them a free firefly isn't a great start, imo. I just don't like adding firefly as a damage buff willy nilly in dojo because it doesn't represent the game well. Though that is the point the firefly was not given away for free it was traded for value (depends on target) if the target dies. With regards to the comparison to a chargers shooting there is a breaking point in volume of augmented shots or in list composition where the firefly is inarguably superior. Arguing that the list in question does not meet that breaking point is valid. Though if the firefly is in the list it will do its thing. If it should be there is another question all together.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 3, 2017 9:45:07 GMT
If the increased damage causes the target to die, in general a charger shooting would do the same I find. Killing models isn't hard, killing models without over committing and losing too much return *is* hard, and giving them a free firefly isn't a great start, imo. I just don't like adding firefly as a damage buff willy nilly in dojo because it doesn't represent the game well. Though that is the point the firefly was not given away for free it was traded for value (depends on target) if the target dies. With regards to the comparison to a chargers shooting there is a breaking point in volume of augmented shots or in list composition where the firefly is inarguably superior. Arguing that the list in question does not meet that breaking point is valid. Though if the firefly is in the list it will do its thing. If it should be there is another question all together. And my whole original argument is about the reasonableness of including firefly into off the cuff damage calculations which I think is unreasonable. The original response was that you should always make the storm Striders guns effective Pow 17 because fireflies are available, which I find highly dubious due to the cost associated with throwing away that firefly. I just want reasonable game play driven arguments for things rather than arguments that rely on unreasonable assumptions.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 3, 2017 13:36:47 GMT
Can we please return to Trencher COD please? My mistake for turning us the wrong way.
Anyway, what Is like to see is - Rifle Grenades - Add a P+S 15 no AOE ammo type. Commandos - Gain Backstab or Overtake.
That's literally all I'd ask for, because changing anything else,might be a wee bit broken.
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