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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 29, 2017 4:17:50 GMT
Quoted for truth. When I look at the actual stats & models (wait, your 7pt jack has MAT 7?!), I feel interested in starting Protectorate again. Then I come to the forums, and see a 7-page thread dedicated to spitting bile at the designers and yeah, feeling that enthusiasm drain away a bit and cautious about posting anything that might get jumped on by forum warriors. [...] But this is better than being overly positive. Inane positivity is even worse than being perhaps slightly too negative. You'll lose more new players if you refuse to acknowledge the problems that exist. Here's the thing, what we are trying to do here is not "Inane positivity"; nobody here is saying that the game or the faction is perfect and that everything is 100% balanced. What people are trying to say that, while it is acknowledged that PoM has faults and issues that need addressing, there is a lot of work that can be done with the faction and that it is in no way in a horrible unplayable state. Thus, we work with what we have and admit that, while screaming on the internet and at PP may feel like its doing something, it's really not. I 100% disagree that you have to be negative because there are negative things to say. It's a personal thing, but one can acknowledge the bad while mentioning the good. You can choose to be overly negative because there are negative things to say, but at that point don't blame anyone if they call you out on it. I also 100% disagree that we'll lose more new players if we refuse to acknowledge the problems that exist, because anybody worth their salt in this game will advise new players anyways that, while PoM is strong, there are some issues that need to be acknowledged. There's a reason why common starting player advice is to avoid the internet, or take it with a grain of salt; the exact negativity you espouse will kill anybody's interest in the game. Just look what it does to experienced players like Azuresun.
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Post by greytemplar on May 29, 2017 6:34:51 GMT
Well, then people should talk about the actual good stuff instead of trying to beat dead horses trying to make the bad stuff work. If someone makes a thread asking "Are Bastions any good?" it is an intense disservice to lie and tell them that they're good. You are IMO morally obligated to say "sorry, bastions are kinda lame right now. This synergy you think works doesn't actually in practice because XYZ..."
What I mean by "Inane Positivity" are all the people yammering for nobody to say negative things. They want people to just stop saying stuff is bad. That's not a healthy attitude.
If you want more positive things, talk about the things that are good. Talk about Vindictus and the Exemplar swarm. Talk about pSevy gunlines using the sweet new Vessel(which is really effective and I am itching for it to get put in warroom). What you should stop doing is bringing up the bad things and then getting all huffy when people reiterate that some things don't work. If you want to talk about the poorer performing portions of the faction, you're going to run into negativity. Don't get all pissy when it happens. If you poke a nest of bees, don't be surprised if you get stung.
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moquan
Junior Strategist
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Post by moquan on May 29, 2017 8:12:56 GMT
If someone makes a thread asking "Are Bastions any good?" it is an intense disservice to lie and tell them that they're good. You are IMO morally obligated to say "sorry, bastions are kinda lame right now. This synergy you think works doesn't actually in practice because XYZ..." This is the right way to take it. But the internet has a way to make such a thread a huge pile of salt and that scares away new players.
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proxy
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Post by proxy on May 29, 2017 14:57:43 GMT
If someone makes a thread asking "Are Bastions any good?" it is an intense disservice to lie and tell them that they're good. You are IMO morally obligated to say "sorry, bastions are kinda lame right now. This synergy you think works doesn't actually in practice because XYZ..." This is the right way to take it. But the internet has a way to make such a thread a huge pile of salt and that scares away new players. Maybe if people stopped taking the ",they are shit play something else approach" and took a "they are considered a poor choice for XYZ, why don't you try them and make your own decisions because they just might work in your meta approach" maybe we could have better discussions...
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Post by chillychinaman on May 29, 2017 15:20:22 GMT
To be perfectly fair, when you see the same types of threads appearing asking why so and so is bad, it can get tiring trying to explain that argument over and over again. Make there needs to be a stickied thread with a time stamped overview of the options within the faction?
And just to a word of caution for the "try them and make your own decisions," suggestion. I'd be very clear to PROXY them for at least A FEW games, before going out and SPENDING MONEY on what is commonly accepted to be subpar models in the current meta. Granted if you have a niche/janky list that YOU can pull off then power to you.
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Post by Demeritus on May 29, 2017 15:34:58 GMT
Honestly, this thread has been helpful for me. I'm trying to give my PoM another look over to see if there are things I want to play. More than that however, because I have played for a long time new players ask me a lot for my opinion and I have tried very hard to side step it because I do not want their view of the faction affected by my view of the faction, but as I see people pointing out their bright spots I can guide them that way.
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Cyel
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Cyel on May 29, 2017 15:55:49 GMT
Well, then people should talk about the actual good stuff instead of trying to beat dead horses trying to make the bad stuff work. If someone makes a thread asking "Are Bastions any good?" it is an intense disservice to lie and tell them that they're good. You are IMO morally obligated to say "sorry, bastions are kinda lame right now. This synergy you think works doesn't actually in practice because XYZ..." Well, if it was only about Bastions I doubt anybody would disagree/object. But comments like -Harby is extremely weak -PoM casters much easier to assassinate than in mk2 -PoM warjacks are garbage and overcosted -Severius1's feat is one of the worst in the game -denial is very poor -attrition is very poor -PoM is no more the fire faction -pre-nerf High Reclaimer was absolutely ok (all authentic, taken from forums, as much as they are hard to believe) are sure to cause some eyebrows to raise. To put it delicately. Especially when they are delivered with an "it is known. An absolute, objective truth!" attitude instead of underlining the "in my humble opinion/experience" part.
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Post by greytemplar on May 29, 2017 16:17:02 GMT
I never saw anybody say Sevy1's feat is "one of the worst in the game". But the rest of those are more or less true, to varying degrees, denying it is just sticking your head in the sand.
But if people keep stubbornly making threads with those topics, you are doomed to have some negativity. Yet people keep trying to fit square pegs in round holes, put lipstick on pigs, etc... They're the ones at fault for making the forums seem like a massive salt pile, they keep opening old wounds.
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Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
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Post by Ryilan on May 29, 2017 16:38:09 GMT
This is a friendly warning to stay on topic. Also please try to keep the salt level in check. The focus of this thread is the current state of PoM and at the moment that is no longer being discussed.
Ryilan
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proxy
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Post by proxy on May 29, 2017 18:25:23 GMT
Back on topic.
As someone who plays a lot of Skorne and ran them at the Ontario Team Championship and put in many practice games with them post mega errata and as someone who has just about as much table time with PoM in MKiii (fifty + games each faction) I can say that I feel like PoM is in its current state not because "PP HATES us" but because we are the fulcrum on the scale of balance.
I feel like PoM is the what PP see's as a well balanced faction. I feel like their errata' are going to move other factions closer from the left and right to meet us in the middle. As a Skorne player and someone who also owns and drops Khador from time to time I don't agree with this but I do believe that is how PP views us as a faction.
If Skorne were in the same state they were in at release I may agree with this assessment but I feel that in doing such a great job on the errata for Skorne that Skorne should be the new fulcrum and that we should be edged slightly to the under-performing side of the scale.
With Skorne I have a great time building lists and coming up with new things to do. Almost all units feel viable, not situationally viable or under a certain caster viable (with some exceptions, but nothing is perfect). I believe that this is what PP should strive for in a faction. This may change when we see the Skorne Themes and it may turn into one of those you play X caster with Y models for maximum efficiency like we are seeing right now with PoM (in my opinion) and other factions.
The current state of affairs has me feeling like PoM how ever is un-inspiring with a greatly reduced set of viable models and the models we see as viable are only so because they can perform independently regardless of caster (Idrians) or only perform well under specific casters and circumstances (Knight Exemplar, Vengers in Vinni or High reclaimer) and that outside of those specific force multiplying casters they units value drops significantly.
I feel like we are one meta swing from being in a bad place. While we have a good stable of B/B+ casters we have a bunch of C units that only become A/A+ units under one or two specific casters and that the success of PoM is very meta dependant.
I feel like our jacks have the potential to be great (I am salty about Mat 6 though still can't reliably kill def 13+ heavies) but that greatness comes at the cost of the choir tax and being a point too expensive. this feels like they were costed in the jack operating at peak performance 100% of the time under perfect circumstances.
It also feels like our faction is supposed to be a counter punch faction but does it poorly. Almost all of our best abilities trigger on damage or on death which I really hate. I hate relying on getting the most bang for the buck from having models damaged or killed(knights, Bastions, Vengers, etc).
For all of the above I feel that PoM exemplifies mediocrity and not in a good everyone is mediocre in terms of balance but Mediocre in the sense that we can excel at certain things under certain conditions where other factions are not gated in the same way.
This is all personal feelings and not empirical.
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Post by greytemplar on May 29, 2017 18:43:31 GMT
I agree. Protectorate is pretty much mediocre. Which I think is really a sad state. Given the obvious path the design has been headed, it doesn't bode well for any changes in the future. We're solidly on the back burner, partially through not knowing what to do with us and partially through a lack of understanding as to what Protectorate is supposed to actually be about.
We can still compete, but not in any truly interesting ways. We have no real identity as far as game mechanics are concerned, and the few mechanics that we are centered around are far weaker than PP believes they are.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 29, 2017 18:56:51 GMT
I feel like our jacks have the potential to be great (I am salty about Mat 6 though still can't reliably kill def 13+ heavies) but that greatness comes at the cost of the choir tax and being a point too expensive. this feels like they were costed in the jack operating at peak performance 100% of the time under perfect circumstances. Choired Crusader on a Charge with 2 extra focus Vs a Slayer: 32.8% Kill Juggernaught on a Charge with 2 extra focus Vs a Slayer: 44% Kill Choired Crusader on a Charge with 2 extra focus Vs a Jugger: 8.9% Kill Juggernaught on a Charge with 2 extra focus Vs a Jugger: 2.2% Kill That's really not true. Mat 6 is still pretty solid for the hitting power you gain access towards. Many Factions would really like making a beatstick out of just any old utility jack. Your jacks are pretty decently costed for their points, over a solid variety of point costs. I'm not going to comment about anything else, but can you please stop the "Our Jacks are so bad" comments? Yup
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proxy
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Post by proxy on May 29, 2017 19:36:04 GMT
Never said our jacks were bad but that there is a barrier to greatness with them.
I think our jacks are good but just need a minor twerk here and there.
I know we are not alone in this feeling and other factions are suffering this as well. I believe that the difference between us and them is that we don't have those awesome power play models that they do.
Again this is all a thread based on opinion not evidence. Im not going to censor an opinion because you or any one else disagrees and I would not ask you to either.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 29, 2017 19:57:10 GMT
Never said our jacks were bad but that there is a barrier to greatness with them. I'm not necessarily against redesigns or touch ups or whatever. I just hate open ended "I don't like this give me more" sort of demands. If you feel like a model has a problem, mention it in specific. If the Barrier to their greatness is the choir that in every theme force and expands their power manyfold, that's not much of a barrier. That's design intention.
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Post by macdaddy on May 29, 2017 20:27:59 GMT
I actually have little issues with out jacks, some may be a tad overpriced (vanquisher and castigator) but otherwise I can feasibly find a purpose for any of them. I think the Judicators rules are kind of everywhere but there's some lists it can work with. If I owned more lights I'd run them more as it stands I mostly own Revengers and Repenters
Honestly I don't think the issue is menoth jacks, I think it's faction envy of other jacks. But recent releases like the Mat 7 Indictor and Eye of truth (who is amazing like enough so I would play out of theme) have me feeling better about our faction comparisons.
We also have a lot of casters that run jacks and infantry very well. I typically go all jacks or all dudes (unless I'm playing Kreoss 1) but that's a preference thing. Sevy 1 runs a great combined arms, Reznick 2 also runs a good mix, Kreoss 3 can run a good combined army.
There's no auto include jacks, but I actually really like that. It encourages list diversity and gives me options for creative list construction.
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