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Post by wayniac on Mar 9, 2017 1:05:19 GMT
The OP's theory for the 'purge' is intriguing. [Intrigue!] I'm in business. When I sell my business, which I will eventually, I will want to eliminate 'baggage' prior, to make the business more attractive to potential buyers. The Faction Forums/Discussion Forums are a form of baggage. So is the PG program (which I am/was part of). My concern is for an imminent sale of Privateer Press, Inc. I hope to enjoy many, many more years of this hobby, and yes, guided by THIS company and its enthusiastic/creative personnel. I think there could be worse, non-fans & in-it-for-ONLY-money folks at the helm... Oh god that would be a scary thought... the stuff of nightmares: Games Workshop, PLC to acquire Privateer Press, Inc.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Mar 9, 2017 4:10:21 GMT
The OP's theory for the 'purge' is intriguing. [Intrigue!] I'm in business. When I sell my business, which I will eventually, I will want to eliminate 'baggage' prior, to make the business more attractive to potential buyers. The Faction Forums/Discussion Forums are a form of baggage. So is the PG program (which I am/was part of). My concern is for an imminent sale of Privateer Press, Inc. I hope to enjoy many, many more years of this hobby, and yes, guided by THIS company and its enthusiastic/creative personnel. I think there could be worse, non-fans & in-it-for-ONLY-money folks at the helm...
If they were making these moves to clear baggage, doing it to entice a sale would be a reason only if they were looking to attract a buyer, like you. I doubt that PP is in the position that it *needs* to attract a buyer.
There are several other reasons why they would want to clear out baggage: - The company has collectively gotten sick of the current state and decided to clean up its act. - PP has sold rights to some of its intellectual property for a movie and they decided to clean things up in anticipation of increased exposure (and scrutiny). - PP needs to conduct a business deal of some kind (borrow money for capital improvements, get a variance on regulatory matters, raise capital by issuing stock, etc.) and needs to pass a review of some kind.
I think that the PP Forums purge was because of what I said in the original post. I think the cutting of the Press Gangers was either for the stated reasons, or because they decided remove a vulnerability. There doesn't appear (yet) to be any connection between the two events.
If there was a connection, either there has been a shift in strategy or a business consultant has started to shift them in a more "professional direction."
It's only been a couple of weeks. Let's take a look at things in a couple of months...
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 5:13:56 GMT
There are several other reasons why they would want to clear out baggage: - The company has collectively gotten sick of the current state and decided to clean up its act. - PP has sold rights to some of its intellectual property for a movie and they decided to clean things up in anticipation of increased exposure (and scrutiny). - PP needs to conduct a business deal of some kind (borrow money for capital improvements, get a variance on regulatory matters, raise capital by issuing stock, etc.) and needs to pass a review of some kind.
I think that the PP Forums purge was because of what I said in the original post. I think the cutting of the Press Gangers was either for the stated reasons, or because they decided remove a vulnerability. There doesn't appear (yet) to be any connection between the two events.
If there was a connection, either there has been a shift in strategy or a business consultant has started to shift them in a more "professional direction."
It's only been a couple of weeks. Let's take a look at things in a couple of months...
I don't know about any of those possibilities. The first doesn't make sense since PP's attitude change has happened in less than a year. They began to get kinda snarky and defensive when the Insiders for Mk3 first came out. If it really was a long drawn out process of them just getting sick of the forums, we would have seen a gradual pulling away from the forums and less interaction with the community. What has actually happened just seems like a massive knee-jerk reaction from the top. The last two don't make sense either because, as we all know... Anybody doing serious legal background research into PP is going to find and look through the old forums. As for "shift in a more professional direction"... PP's latest activities have been anything but "professional". Their stated desire in early Mk3 of trying to be more open with the player base was more professional, but their recent stifling of anything of the sort has been the opposite. It really stinks of knee-jerk reactions from people who cannot admit they made mistakes, and didn't like getting called out on them. And really, that's all many of us wanted. We weren't ticked off that PP made mistakes, we got ticked off when PP refused to admit they made mistakes when told about them. If PP had just admitted they messed up a bunch of stuff with their hurried rollout of Mk3, or at least not responded to the criticism with snark and derision, it wouldn't have resulted in the negative atmosphere. The "negative environment" on the forums was entirely PP's fault for responding to criticism the way they did. They semi-admitted their mistakes with Skorne with their major errata, but they've got a lot of other factions that need help. Especially in the Internal Balance area which they seem to have done a horrible job with Mk3. Cryx, Protectorate, Cygnar, Legion, and Khador need internal balance reworks because there are too many underperforming models being outshone by even stuff thats average. Beasts and melee infantry in general are way overpriced. Protectorate and Cryx are struggling with faction identity. etc... PP just needs to admit they made mistakes, and that they will try and fix them. Thats really all they'd need to do to mend their relationship with the community. We don't need them to be perfect or even get it right the first time, we just need them to fix mistakes when they happen. Not give us the cold shoulder or outright hostility. Yes, we will still complain about mistakes when they occur, but thats how this works. You're never going to know you made a mistake unless someone tells you about it. And it will be far less complaining than you'll get by ignoring the issue or being openly hostile.
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Post by danith00 on Mar 9, 2017 5:24:48 GMT
There are several other reasons why they would want to clear out baggage: - The company has collectively gotten sick of the current state and decided to clean up its act. - PP has sold rights to some of its intellectual property for a movie and they decided to clean things up in anticipation of increased exposure (and scrutiny). - PP needs to conduct a business deal of some kind (borrow money for capital improvements, get a variance on regulatory matters, raise capital by issuing stock, etc.) and needs to pass a review of some kind.
I think that the PP Forums purge was because of what I said in the original post. I think the cutting of the Press Gangers was either for the stated reasons, or because they decided remove a vulnerability. There doesn't appear (yet) to be any connection between the two events.
If there was a connection, either there has been a shift in strategy or a business consultant has started to shift them in a more "professional direction."
It's only been a couple of weeks. Let's take a look at things in a couple of months...
I don't know about any of those possibilities. The first doesn't make sense since PP's attitude change has happened in less than a year. They began to get kinda snarky and defensive when the Insiders for Mk3 first came out. If it really was a long drawn out process of them just getting sick of the forums, we would have seen a gradual pulling away from the forums and less interaction with the community. What has actually happened just seems like a massive knee-jerk reaction from the top. The last two don't make sense either because, as we all know... Anybody doing serious legal background research into PP is going to find and look through the old forums. As for "shift in a more professional direction"... PP's latest activities have been anything but "professional". Their stated desire in early Mk3 of trying to be more open with the player base was more professional, but their recent stifling of anything of the sort has been the opposite. It really stinks of knee-jerk reactions from people who cannot admit they made mistakes, and didn't like getting called out on them. And really, that's all many of us wanted. We weren't ticked off that PP made mistakes, we got ticked off when PP refused to admit they made mistakes when told about them. If PP had just admitted they messed up a bunch of stuff with their hurried rollout of Mk3, or at least not responded to the criticism with snark and derision, it wouldn't have resulted in the negative atmosphere. The "negative environment" on the forums was entirely PP's fault for responding to criticism the way they did. They semi-admitted their mistakes with Skorne with their major errata, but they've got a lot of other factions that need help. Especially in the Internal Balance area which they seem to have done a horrible job with Mk3. Cryx, Protectorate, Cygnar, Legion, and Khador need internal balance reworks because there are too many underperforming models being outshone by even stuff thats average. Beasts and melee infantry in general are way overpriced. Protectorate and Cryx are struggling with faction identity. etc... PP just needs to admit they made mistakes, and that they will try and fix them. Thats really all they'd need to do to mend their relationship with the community. We don't need them to be perfect or even get it right the first time, we just need them to fix mistakes when they happen. Not give us the cold shoulder or outright hostility. Yes, we will still complain about mistakes when they occur, but thats how this works. You're never going to know you made a mistake unless someone tells you about it. And it will be far less complaining than you'll get by ignoring the issue or being openly hostile. Except Cryx isn't under performing. They did extremely well in the Team Tournament. It's people like yourself that seem to think there is such a HUGE gap between the factions. Sorry to burst your bubble... There isn't. There is no major proof that they rushed Mk3. Things slip through the cracks. Then the public (Which is the worst thing about the internet) stated it was rushed and many jumped on the bandwagon. People are more willing to scream and cry then actually accept the fact that maybe they need to look at the game differently. This game was extremely great when it wasn't SO big. Now that it's SO big, its becoming like World of Warcraft community or any major game community. People think they know everything. Sometimes, a company doesn't need to explain themselves. Because, we as consumers feel entitled.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 5:32:32 GMT
I suppose it depends on what you mean by huge gap. I think you simply have a higher tolerance of disparity than I do. Even more so when it comes to faction identity. Each faction should offer a extremely unique play experience, and right now many factions simply do not.
Cryx's main problem right now is as I mentioned, internal balance is crap. They have a very very narrow window of competitive choices(as does Protectorate, and most other factions). PP needs to now focus on fixing the internal balance of the game. Every choice in every faction should be viable competitively in at least a few potential lists. A faction can perform well competitively, but still be in an awful place internally.
You seem to be of the opinion that as long as a faction can have any amount of competitive lists its just fine and nothing needs to be changed. But that couldn't be further from the truth. Cryx is hurting, they need their poor choices to get buffed significantly. Protectorate needs a flavor infusion and a buff to our poorer units. Khador still needs some jack point costs to get shuffled. Beasts and melee infantry need to get cheaper. etc...
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Post by Cryptix on Mar 9, 2017 5:43:12 GMT
I don't know about any of those possibilities. The first doesn't make sense since PP's attitude change has happened in less than a year. They began to get kinda snarky and defensive when the Insiders for Mk3 first came out. If it really was a long drawn out process of them just getting sick of the forums, we would have seen a gradual pulling away from the forums and less interaction with the community. What has actually happened just seems like a massive knee-jerk reaction from the top. The last two don't make sense either because, as we all know... Anybody doing serious legal background research into PP is going to find and look through the old forums. As for "shift in a more professional direction"... PP's latest activities have been anything but "professional". Their stated desire in early Mk3 of trying to be more open with the player base was more professional, but their recent stifling of anything of the sort has been the opposite. It really stinks of knee-jerk reactions from people who cannot admit they made mistakes, and didn't like getting called out on them. And really, that's all many of us wanted. We weren't ticked off that PP made mistakes, we got ticked off when PP refused to admit they made mistakes when told about them. If PP had just admitted they messed up a bunch of stuff with their hurried rollout of Mk3, or at least not responded to the criticism with snark and derision, it wouldn't have resulted in the negative atmosphere. The "negative environment" on the forums was entirely PP's fault for responding to criticism the way they did. They semi-admitted their mistakes with Skorne with their major errata, but they've got a lot of other factions that need help. Especially in the Internal Balance area which they seem to have done a horrible job with Mk3. Cryx, Protectorate, Cygnar, Legion, and Khador need internal balance reworks because there are too many underperforming models being outshone by even stuff thats average. Beasts and melee infantry in general are way overpriced. Protectorate and Cryx are struggling with faction identity. etc... PP just needs to admit they made mistakes, and that they will try and fix them. Thats really all they'd need to do to mend their relationship with the community. We don't need them to be perfect or even get it right the first time, we just need them to fix mistakes when they happen. Not give us the cold shoulder or outright hostility. Yes, we will still complain about mistakes when they occur, but thats how this works. You're never going to know you made a mistake unless someone tells you about it. And it will be far less complaining than you'll get by ignoring the issue or being openly hostile. Except Cryx isn't under performing. They did extremely well in the Team Tournament. It's people like yourself that seem to think there is such a HUGE gap between the factions. Sorry to burst your bubble... There isn't. There is no major proof that they rushed Mk3. Things slip through the cracks. Then the public (Which is the worst thing about the internet) stated it was rushed and many jumped on the bandwagon. People are more willing to scream and cry then actually accept the fact that maybe they need to look at the game differently. Do I need to make a list? - Mechanithralls - Bile Thralls - Sepulcher - Any non Satyxis living infantry (Bloodgorgers, Black Ogrun, Cephalyx) - Bane Warriors Need I go on? Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 9, 2017 6:20:25 GMT
Going to chime in here. Cryx is not underperforming in tournaments. The lists that do work work well in, at the very least, the team tournament environment.
Cryx is struggling with faction identity. Cryx (and other factions) has a large collections of underperforming models and units.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
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Post by Lanz on Mar 9, 2017 7:03:14 GMT
Going to chime in here. Cryx is not underperforming in tournaments. The lists that do work work well in, at the very least, the team tournament environment. Cryx is struggling with faction identity. Cryx (and other factions) has a large collections of underperforming models and units. This is what I find to be the case with Legion as well. Legion still has some powerful warlocks and consequentially good tournament lists, so they can appear very strong if you just look at tournament results, but what that misses is that whole swathes of the faction just... don't make sense for their points, and see extremely little use as a result.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Mar 9, 2017 7:05:54 GMT
The same can likely be said rather loudly by Trolls, if not many factions. It could be, quite plainly, that all factions missed the mark of "Everything works in some fashion" - Cryx was just in the position to see the largest delta in usefulness, and be the loudest about the change.
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Post by Blargaliscious on Mar 9, 2017 7:58:50 GMT
There are several other reasons why they would want to clear out baggage: - The company has collectively gotten sick of the current state and decided to clean up its act. - PP has sold rights to some of its intellectual property for a movie and they decided to clean things up in anticipation of increased exposure (and scrutiny). - PP needs to conduct a business deal of some kind (borrow money for capital improvements, get a variance on regulatory matters, raise capital by issuing stock, etc.) and needs to pass a review of some kind.
I think that the PP Forums purge was because of what I said in the original post. I think the cutting of the Press Gangers was either for the stated reasons, or because they decided remove a vulnerability. There doesn't appear (yet) to be any connection between the two events.
If there was a connection, either there has been a shift in strategy or a business consultant has started to shift them in a more "professional direction."
It's only been a couple of weeks. Let's take a look at things in a couple of months...
I don't know about any of those possibilities. The first doesn't make sense since PP's attitude change has happened in less than a year. They began to get kinda snarky and defensive when the Insiders for Mk3 first came out. If it really was a long drawn out process of them just getting sick of the forums, we would have seen a gradual pulling away from the forums and less interaction with the community. What has actually happened just seems like a massive knee-jerk reaction from the top. The last two don't make sense either because, as we all know... Anybody doing serious legal background research into PP is going to find and look through the old forums. As for "shift in a more professional direction"... PP's latest activities have been anything but "professional". Their stated desire in early Mk3 of trying to be more open with the player base was more professional, but their recent stifling of anything of the sort has been the opposite. It really stinks of knee-jerk reactions from people who cannot admit they made mistakes, and didn't like getting called out on them. And really, that's all many of us wanted. We weren't ticked off that PP made mistakes, we got ticked off when PP refused to admit they made mistakes when told about them. If PP had just admitted they messed up a bunch of stuff with their hurried rollout of Mk3, or at least not responded to the criticism with snark and derision, it wouldn't have resulted in the negative atmosphere. The "negative environment" on the forums was entirely PP's fault for responding to criticism the way they did. They semi-admitted their mistakes with Skorne with their major errata, but they've got a lot of other factions that need help. Especially in the Internal Balance area which they seem to have done a horrible job with Mk3. Cryx, Protectorate, Cygnar, Legion, and Khador need internal balance reworks because there are too many underperforming models being outshone by even stuff thats average. Beasts and melee infantry in general are way overpriced. Protectorate and Cryx are struggling with faction identity. etc... PP just needs to admit they made mistakes, and that they will try and fix them. Thats really all they'd need to do to mend their relationship with the community. We don't need them to be perfect or even get it right the first time, we just need them to fix mistakes when they happen. Not give us the cold shoulder or outright hostility. Yes, we will still complain about mistakes when they occur, but thats how this works. You're never going to know you made a mistake unless someone tells you about it. And it will be far less complaining than you'll get by ignoring the issue or being openly hostile.
I appreciate what you are saying, and in no way am I trying to deny or mitigate your thoughts. But, the more professional direction comment was not meant to be about how Privateer Press conducted themselves online or in their communications strategy. It was meant to be a comment about how Privateer Press conducted itself as a business.
It seems like you are approaching the Mk3 roll-out from a friendship point of view. In your opinion your friends at Privateer Press screwed up the Mk3 roll-out, your friends at Privateer Press weren't completely forthcoming about some aspects of what they were doing, and your friends at Privateer Press didn't listen to you like a good friend should.
Here's the problem: while the people at Privateer Press are all good people (especially Will Pagani) and they were as friendly as they could be, the business known as Privateer Press is not your friend. Privateer Press is not your enemy either. It is a business that is trying to make money by selling you game rules and miniatures. Nothing more, nothing less.
Any business professional who would have done a strategic outlook and costs / benefits analysis of the forums would have told Privateer Press: "Pull your head out of your @$$, the inmates are starting to think they run the asylum and the costs of maintaining control are starting to eat into your productivity and your profits. Fix it."
So Privateer Press fixed the forums, like a Juggernaut with Superiority, Boundless Charge, and 3 focus. They did it quick - if they took their time it would have spread the butt hurt over a larger number of people. They didn't communicate much about it because if they had engaged in communication with people the confused people would have become angry and the angry people would have become vitriolic. They also cut out almost all sections that could have had posts that would have diluted the basic message of "Privateer Press stuff is great! Buy it!" Privateer Press also fixed the forums to their liking with one aspect very clear in their mind: the forums are theirs, not ours.
They knew that what they were doing was going to pi$$ some people off, but most would get over it and only the more childish ones would "leave the game" in a huff. Hey, every customer base has churn in it (some people leave the customer base while others enter) and they probably figured that the reconfigured forums would drive away customers who weren't buying much anyway, and be better at welcoming new players.
The Privateer Press forums are not gone, just re-aligned with an updated business strategy.
You, and others, seem to be taking the changes to the forums personally. Don't. It's nothing personal, it's just business.
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Post by trollsareblue on Mar 9, 2017 11:15:49 GMT
This is complete speculation on your part. If the game has grown too large to continue the PG program, then it isn't hurting in sales. Additionally, with the increased focus on digital content, community building becomes more important to long-term growth and stability, not less. There is zero reason it should be cutting into productivity either, assuming you have a competent community manager that is allowed do their job.
I have worked for RPG companies with active forums. I have worked with social media. The moves PP have decided to make, particularly as regards the forums, do not spring from a fiscal root.
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Post by jynxed on Mar 9, 2017 11:47:53 GMT
I suppose it depends on what you mean by huge gap. I think you simply have a higher tolerance of disparity than I do. Even more so when it comes to faction identity. Each faction should offer a extremely unique play experience, and right now many factions simply do not. Cryx's main problem right now is as I mentioned, internal balance is crap. They have a very very narrow window of competitive choices(as does Protectorate, and most other factions). PP needs to now focus on fixing the internal balance of the game. Every choice in every faction should be viable competitively in at least a few potential lists. A faction can perform well competitively, but still be in an awful place internally. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as a faction can have any amount of competitive lists its just fine and nothing needs to be changed. But that couldn't be further from the truth. Cryx is hurting, they need their poor choices to get buffed significantly. Protectorate needs a flavor infusion and a buff to our poorer units. Khador still needs some jack point costs to get shuffled. Beasts and melee infantry need to get cheaper. etc... In a similar vein, Cygnar isn't underperforming, but they also suffer from internal faction balance. You know, like all of their other units being invalidated by Storm Lances. Just because a faction is winning doesn't mean it isn't 'broken'. Taje the old adage, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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Post by jynxed on Mar 9, 2017 11:52:13 GMT
I don't know about any of those possibilities. The first doesn't make sense since PP's attitude change has happened in less than a year. They began to get kinda snarky and defensive when the Insiders for Mk3 first came out. If it really was a long drawn out process of them just getting sick of the forums, we would have seen a gradual pulling away from the forums and less interaction with the community. What has actually happened just seems like a massive knee-jerk reaction from the top. The last two don't make sense either because, as we all know... Anybody doing serious legal background research into PP is going to find and look through the old forums. As for "shift in a more professional direction"... PP's latest activities have been anything but "professional". Their stated desire in early Mk3 of trying to be more open with the player base was more professional, but their recent stifling of anything of the sort has been the opposite. It really stinks of knee-jerk reactions from people who cannot admit they made mistakes, and didn't like getting called out on them. And really, that's all many of us wanted. We weren't ticked off that PP made mistakes, we got ticked off when PP refused to admit they made mistakes when told about them. If PP had just admitted they messed up a bunch of stuff with their hurried rollout of Mk3, or at least not responded to the criticism with snark and derision, it wouldn't have resulted in the negative atmosphere. The "negative environment" on the forums was entirely PP's fault for responding to criticism the way they did. They semi-admitted their mistakes with Skorne with their major errata, but they've got a lot of other factions that need help. Especially in the Internal Balance area which they seem to have done a horrible job with Mk3. Cryx, Protectorate, Cygnar, Legion, and Khador need internal balance reworks because there are too many underperforming models being outshone by even stuff thats average. Beasts and melee infantry in general are way overpriced. Protectorate and Cryx are struggling with faction identity. etc... PP just needs to admit they made mistakes, and that they will try and fix them. Thats really all they'd need to do to mend their relationship with the community. We don't need them to be perfect or even get it right the first time, we just need them to fix mistakes when they happen. Not give us the cold shoulder or outright hostility. Yes, we will still complain about mistakes when they occur, but thats how this works. You're never going to know you made a mistake unless someone tells you about it. And it will be far less complaining than you'll get by ignoring the issue or being openly hostile.
I appreciate what you are saying, and in no way am I trying to deny or mitigate your thoughts. But, the more professional direction comment was not meant to be about how Privateer Press conducted themselves online or in their communications strategy. It was meant to be a comment about how Privateer Press conducted itself as a business.
It seems like you are approaching the Mk3 roll-out from a friendship point of view. In your opinion your friends at Privateer Press screwed up the Mk3 roll-out, your friends at Privateer Press weren't completely forthcoming about some aspects of what they were doing, and your friends at Privateer Press didn't listen to you like a good friend should.
Here's the problem: while the people at Privateer Press are all good people (especially Will Pagani) and they were as friendly as they could be, the business known as Privateer Press is not your friend. Privateer Press is not your enemy either. It is a business that is trying to make money by selling you game rules and miniatures. Nothing more, nothing less.
Any business professional who would have done a strategic outlook and costs / benefits analysis of the forums would have told Privateer Press: "Pull your head out of your @$$, the inmates are starting to think they run the asylum and the costs of maintaining control are starting to eat into your productivity and your profits. Fix it."
So Privateer Press fixed the forums, like a Juggernaut with Superiority, Boundless Charge, and 3 focus. They did it quick - if they took their time it would have spread the butt hurt over a larger number of people. They didn't communicate much about it because if they had engaged in communication with people the confused people would have become angry and the angry people would have become vitriolic. They also cut out almost all sections that could have had posts that would have diluted the basic message of "Privateer Press stuff is great! Buy it!" Privateer Press also fixed the forums to their liking with one aspect very clear in their mind: the forums are theirs, not ours.
They knew that what they were doing was going to pi$$ some people off, but most would get over it and only the more childish ones would "leave the game" in a huff. Hey, every customer base has churn in it (some people leave the customer base while others enter) and they probably figured that the reconfigured forums would drive away customers who weren't buying much anyway, and be better at welcoming new players.
The Privateer Press forums are not gone, just re-aligned with an updated business strategy.
You, and others, seem to be taking the changes to the forums personally. Don't. It's nothing personal, it's just business.
Riot and Blizzard are two major gaming companies with active forums that are just as toxic if not more so. If they can run toxic doom pits with lift lye business repercussions, so can PP. This was likely emotional.
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Post by wayniac on Mar 9, 2017 14:21:56 GMT
Yeah. The key thing to rmemeber is that yes, as a business PP needs to make sound decisions. THey do not have the massive inertia that GW did to Firetruck things up royally and sit on their laurels. They should be extra cautious because if they underestimate their playerbase, they will quickly find people, to keep up their pirate theme, abandon ship and let them go to Davy Jones' locker. PP cannot last for 10 years resting on their laurels if they do things to piss off their fans.
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Post by greytemplar on Mar 9, 2017 16:31:07 GMT
Indeed. The forums weren't hurting PP at all. And even if they were slightly, the way that PP handled removing the forums caused exponentially more harm.
Really the forums might as well not exist. They're literally now just a place to get official rules answers. They're useless for more experienced players, and thus they will become useless for new players without more experienced players to give them a helping hand.
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