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Post by greytemplar on May 25, 2017 22:11:12 GMT
And if anything, something like the problem with battle driven and rough terrain should be more obvious to someone who has to keep an eye on 13 factions. He should be more aware of general mechanics and basic player interactions.
And its not like we're only aware of single factions. Anybody who plays this game seriously has to be aware of what's going on in other factions too.
Battle driven isn't a protectorate unique rule either. Other factions have it too.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on May 25, 2017 22:55:14 GMT
Can someone please explain to me why Soles still has a job? This theme does nothing of what its intended to do and his selling of it betrays his total ignorance of the interactions THAT WERE MADE BY HIM AND HIS COWORKERS. I've laid off the guy since MKIII launch because he rarely poked his head out but jesus christ he should have no interaction with the community. Foot => Mouth every time.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 26, 2017 0:33:08 GMT
Except this isn't just this incident. It's been going on ever since Mk3 was announced a year ago. A clear pattern of misguided design choices, as well as open hostility. Oh and his high position is indeed indicative of a larger issue. If they're this clueless at the top with their lead designer, then the lower people likely have similar problems. At the very least, it shows their lead designer lacks some basic critical thinking about how stuff might actually work on the table top. Anybody who stops to think about how Battle Driven works would immediately realize that parking in rough terrain isn't a good idea. The opponent will know he only has to do nothing to the unit, and they'll be no threat. The fact that PP's lead designer cannot see this basic problem really calls into question all design decisions he makes. And being the head of the design department, it doesn't bode well for anything that PP designs since he will obviously have a hand in everything they make. So after a few hours, a couple beers, and a long walk, I return ready to state my argument a bit more clearly than before, and now grey templar has pre-empted me. However, I think he brushed on an even deeper issue without quite realizing it: Apparently works in playtest. It's actually perfectly fine by me if Mr Soles or, well, any one person on the design team screws up on the best use of a rule. This is not only expected, in fact I'd say it's usually indicative of a meaningful choice being present. It's when this fairly obvious tactical error, something on the level of a ?? move in chess, has apparently been rewarded enough times in playtest as to not only release but be sold as the flagship ability of the entire exemplar theme.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 26, 2017 0:40:55 GMT
That's because his strategy works in the playtest thats on the NQ. He leaves Sacrificial Vengers hoping they will be killed and enable the rest of them to ignore difficultly terrain....
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Post by alanryan on May 26, 2017 3:20:34 GMT
another fact: PoM is the ONLY faction that haven't any special model. no beer girl, no giant warcaster, no bust EVEN GYMKIN HAVE A SPECIAL HOLLOWMAN. but we haven't any PP hate us. PP hope us don't play this game again.
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Post by Demeritus on May 26, 2017 4:27:35 GMT
another fact: PoM is the ONLY faction that haven't any special model. no beer girl, no giant warcaster, no bust EVEN GYMKIN HAVE A SPECIAL HOLLOWMAN. but we haven't any PP hate us. PP hope us don't play this game again. Reznik2 is a huge based warcaster, and there are several factions who have not gotten an alternative model. I'm not thrilled with how Mk3 is going for this army but I would not go that far at all.
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Post by alanryan on May 26, 2017 5:01:05 GMT
another fact: PoM is the ONLY faction that haven't any special model. no beer girl, no giant warcaster, no bust EVEN GYMKIN HAVE A SPECIAL HOLLOWMAN. but we haven't any PP hate us. PP hope us don't play this game again. Reznik2 is a huge based warcaster, and there are several factions who have not gotten an alternative model. I'm not thrilled with how Mk3 is going for this army but I would not go that far at all. huge based warcaster is not giant warcaster. huge based warcaster is a “normal” thing, i mean giant Sorscha or Haley -- the souvenir model.
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Post by John Smith on May 26, 2017 9:43:06 GMT
It's not a theme list, it's an advert for buying cavalry models
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 26, 2017 10:09:09 GMT
with regards to parking the Vengers behind a wall or in a forest, and then leaving a goober standing out front to bait the enemy. If that Venger was contesting a scenario element, the enemy either leaves it alone and does not score, or kills it which lets the other get to you. you can force a catch 22, which is not always apparent when looking at it on paper
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Post by c0deb1ue on May 26, 2017 10:49:00 GMT
with regards to parking the Vengers behind a wall or in a forest, and then leaving a goober standing out front to bait the enemy. If that Venger was contesting a scenario element, the enemy either leaves it alone and does not score, or kills it which lets the other get to you. you can force a catch 22, which is not always apparent when looking at it on paper Any strategy which either relies on the opponent not knowing your rules or gives your opponent the choice of how you play is pretty terrible. As well as the concept of parking people in rough terrain who have conditional pathfinder Battledriven has nothing to do with this theme in the slightest, as I said before, he describes the units base abilities, but they are in no way improved by the theme. Deploy 2" further forward so that the rough terrain is close enough to bunch all your exemplar units in.... you will need a fair amount of rough terrain.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 26, 2017 10:50:39 GMT
with regards to parking the Vengers behind a wall or in a forest, and then leaving a goober standing out front to bait the enemy. If that Venger was contesting a scenario element, the enemy either leaves it alone and does not score, or kills it which lets the other get to you. you can force a catch 22, which is not always apparent when looking at it on paper Except if they have push effects like the Angelius and stuff Also in Sr17 it feels like there are plenty of other scenario elements to score. Like with the increase in how many places you can score from, the impact of one contesting model is reduced. Also the change from a race to 5 makes it so that there is less overall imminent need to score that point right now.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 26, 2017 11:03:45 GMT
I feel like I should add a disclaimer to my comment, I am not saying PPS_Strawman is a strategic mastermind, or that his interpretation of the theme is any good whatsoever. I am just pointing out a situation where presenting your opponent with a potentially tough decision is not the worst thing in the world.
edit, just gonna expand on this by giving an example, lets say you are playing Testament of Menoth, you put 2 Vengers in front of a wall out ahead, and the others 3 behind. The two Vengers are not an insignificant threat if they both charge, so your opponent decides to kill them, in your next turn you charge the other 3 over the wall (assuming you have not feated) and revive the other 2, who sit behind the wall where the other 3 used to be, your Vessel of Judgment then heals them both for d3
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 26, 2017 14:23:51 GMT
Reznik2 is a huge based warcaster, and there are several factions who have not gotten an alternative model. I'm not thrilled with how Mk3 is going for this army but I would not go that far at all. huge based warcaster is not giant warcaster. huge based warcaster is a “normal” thing, i mean giant Sorscha or Haley -- the souvenir model. What giant Sorscha? AFAIK the only collectible 'caster figure that was released was Haley. And thank God we didn't get one, Haley had questionable quality. Edit: That being said, keep the thread on topic re: the battle report, not speculation on PP hating a specific faction and wanting its entire playerbase to go away.
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Post by gargs454 on May 26, 2017 16:05:02 GMT
Apparently works in playtest. It's actually perfectly fine by me if Mr Soles or, well, any one person on the design team screws up on the best use of a rule. This is not only expected, in fact I'd say it's usually indicative of a meaningful choice being present. It's when this fairly obvious tactical error, something on the level of a ?? move in chess, has apparently been rewarded enough times in playtest as to not only release but be sold as the flagship ability of the entire exemplar theme. Honestly, this, to me, is always one of the inherent risks of internal play testing. For starters, its highly likely that the exemplar theme was not the only thing being tested at the time. In fact, I would be shocked if it were. Secondly: the designers, and even dedicated play testers (if PP even has those) are often "blinded" by what they see as the intended use/ideal. (This tends to be more problematic in RPGs than in Table Top wargames, but it does sometimes explain how something seemingly obvious to the player base can be missed by internal tests). I recall a local video game company one time had me (and a bunch of others) in to do a play test on their current game (my buddy worked on the game so I got the invite along with a $100 check). The main aim of the test was to test the usability and ease of interface but I loaded up a side quest that was to kill target X. The quest was designed to have you go through a series of hoops to finally reach X, but the game was an open world game and I happened to just notice X walking by in the corner of the screen, ran over, and killed him. Unfortunately, that did not trigger the quest completion but then following through the rest of the quest resulted in a dead end because X was already dead. One of the devs was like "Wait, you aren't supposed to do that!" It was something that had never come up in their play tests because all the testers just followed the prompts, it was just happenstance that I noticed X. But the biggest problem of all is simply their limited time/number of tests they can actually do. External tests (provided that they are honest) will always be more effective. The other problem that can crop up (and I seem to recall them actually discussing this on one of the early Mk III Primecasts) is that, internally, they are often dealing with a wide variety of rules due to upcoming errata (or proposed errata), new models, new rules, etc. that I think it does make it more likely that the opponent will forget a particular rule, whereas when you are dealing with a tournament scene, the really good players are absolutely going to remember the rules. Locally though, I do know that in casual games there are a lot of times where either myself, or my opponent, is unaware of a rule, or forgets it, etc. Granted, we can/should always look at the rules when making our decisions but in casual games in particular, that is often skipped. Of course, none of this is to say that the proposed strategy is anything short of stupid, just saying that I get why internally, they tend not to come up with the best strategies at times.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 26, 2017 17:29:58 GMT
I feel like I should add a disclaimer to my comment, I am not saying PPS_Strawman is a strategic mastermind, or that his interpretation of the theme is any good whatsoever. I am just pointing out a situation where presenting your opponent with a potentially tough decision is not the worst thing in the world.
edit, just gonna expand on this by giving an example, lets say you are playing Testament of Menoth, you put 2 Vengers in front of a wall out ahead, and the others 3 behind. The two Vengers are not an insignificant threat if they both charge, so your opponent decides to kill them, in your next turn you charge the other 3 over the wall (assuming you have not feated) and revive the other 2, who sit behind the wall where the other 3 used to be, your Vessel of Judgment then heals them both for d3 Wow that is very well written and interesting tactica. It's almost like you thought about it and realized that it requires a couple of moving parts and not just "park your vengers in a forest and leave one ahead to bait" like af if that's not the most obvious bait in all of existence. Shame NQ isn't hiring.
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