Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 25, 2017 15:50:29 GMT
Except that it's exactly the wrong way of doing it. We've been infuriated, time and again, by other people beating us at our own games in MK 3: harbinger feat vs old witch, Huh. I never knew you saw it that way especially as Old Witches Feat is seen as lackluster in Khador. Kinda really limits her capabilities in the new edition when Warnouns just ignore it no problem. read the two feats side by side, and check the ranges. Harbinger might be stronger overall, but it's just one more thing that we have that's strictly worse than someone else's thing. I don't want to do that to trolls, they already have enough trouble into most other armies.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 25, 2017 15:55:53 GMT
read the two feats side by side, and check the ranges. Harbinger might be stronger overall, but it's just one more thing that we have that's strictly worse than someone else's thing. I don't want to do that to trolls, they already have enough trouble into most other armies. No I get it I just didn't think that you really found Harbingers Feat Such a Hangup. At Focus 10 her feat reached across the whole field. Also, I believe it actually isn't stronger overall at all. Probably deserves a redesign do so something else I suppose. Im bitter that you have a Caster that has 1/2 of signs and portens for free every turn on a Focus 8 Caster.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on May 25, 2017 16:03:48 GMT
read the two feats side by side, and check the ranges. Harbinger might be stronger overall, but it's just one more thing that we have that's strictly worse than someone else's thing. I don't want to do that to trolls, they already have enough trouble into most other armies. No I get it I just didn't think that you really found Harbingers Feat Such a Hangup. At Focus 10 her feat reached across the whole field. Also, I believe it actually isn't stronger overall at all. Probably deserves a redesign do so something else I suppose. Im bitter that you have a Caster that has 1/2 of signs and portens for free every turn on a Focus 8 Caster. Yeah, A lot of people were/are mad about the feat nerf, they've just stopped talking. It's not that we thought it shouldn't go, it's that the 10" control area is quite often already a no-go zone for the enemy due to her army, and much of what she worries about it already ranged anyway and can now just ignore it. We wanted a full redesign when it was spoiled.
As for the signs and portents, I believe you speak of Severius 1's Eye of Menoth? I guess you could read it that way. It used to be a spell IIRC and personally I'm still kinda surprised it's not anymore. I often end up camping like 4 when I play him because I don't use enough of his stack.
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Post by streetpizza on May 25, 2017 16:09:56 GMT
Sorry, but I don't buy the argument of we can't do this because its somebody else's schtick. I don't care that old witch has a feat similar to Harbinger's. I judge those feats on their own merits within their own factions. Taking the grass is greener approach to any faction is going to result in disappointment across the board as somebody will always be better at some of the stuff your faction does.
Your point about tough not highlighting the theme of vengeance inherent to the exemplar is well taken though. I do see the hyper aggressive thing as being patently useless in game though. That comes from playing Kromac2 where I barely used it on beasts as it usually just draws you into charge range.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 25, 2017 16:14:03 GMT
Keeping it on the topic of NQ Batreps, can someone tell me if the other ones are as full of.... interesting tactical choices as this one is? I don't know enough about other factions to tell.
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Post by perilsensitive on May 25, 2017 16:37:22 GMT
You CAN kinda force the issue with Battle Driven, but hiding the rest of the unit in a forest is too enticing for your opponent to just let them founder.
I usually play Exemplars with Vindictus or ToM, so I don't sweat the pathfinder part of it as much.
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Post by greytemplar on May 25, 2017 19:05:02 GMT
Can we all agree now that PP has no clue how Protectorate plays, or should be designed at this point? I mean, how much more evidence do we need? Except that it's exactly the wrong way of doing it. We've been infuriated, time and again, by other people beating us at our own games in MK 3: harbinger feat vs old witch, Huh. I never knew you saw it that way especially as Old Witches Feat is seen as lackluster in Khador. Kinda really limits her capabilities in the new edition when Warnouns just ignore it no problem. That's how Harbinger's old feat would have seemed in Mk3. yet they decided to nerf it. Now it's a worse version of Old Witch's feat* *even in mk2, Old Witch's feat was somewhat better in that any movement triggered it, not only ending closer. Harbinger only had a range advantage. Indeed. I'll park my Exemplars in a forest all day long with Vindictus. But doing it when Battle Driven is your only source of pathfinder is a pretty bozo-level screw up. I'm sick of Protectorate game mechanics only really working to full potential when your opponent is incompetent.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 25, 2017 19:18:06 GMT
Can we all agree now that PP has no clue how Protectorate plays, or should be designed at this point? I mean, how much more evidence do we need? No. One person is not evidence for the entire staff, regardless as to how high their position may be. But we can agree that there are members of PP's design team that don't know how to play them.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 25, 2017 19:27:45 GMT
Can we all agree now that PP has no clue how Protectorate plays, or should be designed at this point? I mean, how much more evidence do we need? No. One person is not evidence for the entire staff, regardless as to how high their position may be. But we can agree that there are members of PP's design team that don't know how to play them. What he said. AFAIK only Jason Soles has a painted PoM army that he regularly puts on the table. Let's not generalize based on the performance of one guy.
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Post by greytemplar on May 25, 2017 19:51:33 GMT
Except this isn't just this incident. It's been going on ever since Mk3 was announced a year ago. A clear pattern of misguided design choices, as well as open hostility.
Oh and his high position is indeed indicative of a larger issue. If they're this clueless at the top with their lead designer, then the lower people likely have similar problems. At the very least, it shows their lead designer lacks some basic critical thinking about how stuff might actually work on the table top.
Anybody who stops to think about how Battle Driven works would immediately realize that parking in rough terrain isn't a good idea. The opponent will know he only has to do nothing to the unit, and they'll be no threat. The fact that PP's lead designer cannot see this basic problem really calls into question all design decisions he makes. And being the head of the design department, it doesn't bode well for anything that PP designs since he will obviously have a hand in everything they make.
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blakeh1
Junior Strategist
Posts: 181
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Post by blakeh1 on May 25, 2017 19:56:14 GMT
And of course after tying to build a theme list in Warroom, I see that Rhoven and Co do not count towards your exemplar units points despite 2 or the 3 models in the unit being exemplar
And Gravus can't be a free model, but it is ok for Retribution to get a free 8 point dragoon in their theme
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Post by flamigant on May 25, 2017 20:26:04 GMT
That's the thing i can't wrap my head around is the free 8 point model in a ret theme. I guess they really thought it trough
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 25, 2017 20:56:56 GMT
Except this isn't just this incident. It's been going on ever since Mk3 was announced a year ago. A clear pattern of misguided design choices, as well as open hostility. That was the same person, if I recall correctly. I can't disagree with you here, but I can say again, that just because someones boss doesn't seem to know the minutiae, that they also don't. I've been in the position of running things with a boss that knew less than I did, but it didn't affect my ability to do my job. You are right that it does bode ill, however. I feel that the employee in question may have actually designed the Exemplar theme and genuinely thought it was interesting and powerful. What may be obvious to you or I, as committed players of the Protectorate, may not be to someone who has to keep an eye on thirteen factions. Remember that there are over 750 different models split unevenly between those factions. That's a lot to remember. I do wish that he'd tried more strategies out than what was mentioned. Vengers are good, but not so good that I want to go out and buy a second unit just to make this one theme force work.
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Post by greytemplar on May 25, 2017 21:36:28 GMT
It was both Hungerford and Soles.
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Post by Wibble on May 25, 2017 21:54:21 GMT
This theme force just does nothing and it actually feel like this article was designed to push cavalry sales....
And Gravus isn't even a free solo... wtf
it's literally like because we have the lesser choir and incredibly gimped vassals... though don't have to bother trying to make PoM work... because our support is "incredible still"
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