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Post by cygnarstronk on May 20, 2017 9:59:07 GMT
Hi all, question time. Do you think it is, on a competitive basis, still worth fielding H3?
She is a really strong caster, it can't be denied... but she despises theme lists. She wants a mix of trenchers, storm knights, merc solos and jacks. maybe she'll be good again with a trencher theme out, but losing the storm knights and mercs will hurt like hell, also how many free points can we expect to get from a trencher theme? They are all focused on infantry killing, so I don't see getting more than one solo out of the free points as I wouldn't bring 40 points of trencher models to the fray.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 20, 2017 17:28:02 GMT
I do think she'll have potential if the Grave Diggers theme is good. If trench busters can be taken for free, that would help with armor cracking. She already likes the cloud wall amd grenadiers.
As well, there will likely be a new model or two. Hopefully some way for trenchers to hurt big stuff. Maybe the trencher long gunners will have AP rounds. Idk. Or a commando attatchment with prey.
The theme benefits will likely be a free solo for every 20 points of trencher models, commandoes gain ambush, and something else. I hope it isn't something weak like trenchers lay down smoke during deployment.
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 20, 2017 17:58:48 GMT
Well, I have a question. Is theme force a must choice for the competitive games? You can field Storm Lances out of theme, and Storm Division's extra points are just goes to Stormblade Infantry. And your units are more stronger when out of theme.
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Post by cygnarstronk on May 22, 2017 7:15:11 GMT
a theme lets you play with 12 or more points than your opponent. You can bring overcosted stuff without feeling too bad (like stormblades, that become roughly 17 points maxed out in theme, or the storm strider becoming closer to 14 points in themes) or bring super good stuff and have them even cheaper (lances, all jacks in heavy metal). Some of those bonuses are also vital to the units, like the advance move on the blades (otherwise really too slow) or the extended deploy in heavy metal, making a force usually not that fast being able to reach middle of the board much better.
Yeah, I think no caster is going to be competitive if they don't have access to good theme lists.
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Post by droopingpuppy on May 22, 2017 7:38:04 GMT
Well, for me Advance Move on Stormblade Infantry is no more than a taunt for us, because they are fragile weapon master unit that must be sit behind of the others and making it useless. Consider they can't expect the support of Carvolo, who is a mandatory choice to run them and allow them to survive on the frontline, I don't think that it is worthwhile. For the backup counter charging unit for Storm Lances it is not needed either. Honestly, Storm Division itself is a pure garbage, and it is usable just because they can access for one of the best unit in the game. It is the greatness of that overpowered unit, not the advantage of the theme.
After all, the extra points are only able to be used for some inferior choice. And is it possible that a handful of such an inferior choice can even beat more optimized models before simply dying out? I think that they can, but I doubt that they does it all the times easily.
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Post by cygnarstronk on May 22, 2017 7:57:08 GMT
Well, for me Advance Move on Stormblade Infantry is no more than a taunt for us, because they are fragile weapon master unit that must be sit behind of the others and making it useless. Consider they can't expect the support of Carvolo, who is a mandatory choice to run them and allow them to survive on the frontline, I don't think that it is worthwhile. For the backup counter charging unit for Storm Lances it is not needed either. Honestly, Storm Division itself is a pure garbage, and it is usable just because they can access for one of the best unit in the game. It is the greatness of that overpowered unit, not the advantage of the theme. After all, the extra points are only able to be used for some inferior choice. And is it possible that a handful of such an inferior choice can even beat more optimized models before simply dying out? I think that they can, but I doubt that they does it all the times easily. Most recent big event are being won over by theme lists. I guess you are uninformed. Most good players are switching to theme lists as they are too good. Also what the hell? Why do you all think stormblades are made out of paper? Slap AS or Dauntless on them, minifeat and have them at ARM21. That is ret sentinels level of armor. They are overcosted, the theme list fixes this. Also, advance move is good even if you plan on using them as a second line, as with just a 10 inches run they woulnd't be able to follow the lances effectively, now they can.
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Post by Swampmist on May 24, 2017 5:13:18 GMT
First off, calling people uninformed\ignorant isn't cool. Secondly, it is not theme lists as a concept that are currently taking over the meta, but specific themes. Oracles lets Legion play beast-heavy without giving up on support. Ghost Fleet gives cryx a really strong recursion game, and Denny1 turns all of those constantly recurring rifles up to 13. Irusk2 gets to take 70 WGI and still have room for field guns. ect ect. Yet, factions like PoM (outside of Amon,) and casters like Ashlynn and certain Minion Locks are happily running out of theme and still proving to be quite competative. Heck, Cygnar currently has one of the biggest non-theme casters in Sloan, who (like many casters, especially def-skew caster with access to WE) can't afford to give up flexibility for a couple of points.
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Post by Aegis on May 24, 2017 7:14:16 GMT
I think Sloan would probably work pretty well with Heavy Metal actually.
About Haley3, I think she will probably rise again in popularity soon when Trencher theme force will be out. It's true that she likes mixed armies, but I think she can skip on electric things if Trenchers alone prove to be good enough.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 24, 2017 15:16:36 GMT
First off, calling people uninformed\ignorant isn't cool. Secondly, it is not theme lists as a concept that are currently taking over the meta, but specific themes. Oracles lets Legion play beast-heavy without giving up on support. Ghost Fleet gives cryx a really strong recursion game, and Denny1 turns all of those constantly recurring rifles up to 13. Irusk2 gets to take 70 WGI and still have room for field guns. ect ect. Yet, factions like PoM (outside of Amon,) and casters like Ashlynn and certain Minion Locks are happily running out of theme and still proving to be quite competative. Heck, Cygnar currently has one of the biggest non-theme casters in Sloan, who (like many casters, especially def-skew caster with access to WE) can't afford to give up flexibility for a couple of points. Sloan only ever wants Heavy Metal in my experience, it is the single best way of taking maximum amount of jacks and still have all the support she wants
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Post by Swampmist on May 24, 2017 16:22:16 GMT
First off, calling people uninformed\ignorant isn't cool. Secondly, it is not theme lists as a concept that are currently taking over the meta, but specific themes. Oracles lets Legion play beast-heavy without giving up on support. Ghost Fleet gives cryx a really strong recursion game, and Denny1 turns all of those constantly recurring rifles up to 13. Irusk2 gets to take 70 WGI and still have room for field guns. ect ect. Yet, factions like PoM (outside of Amon,) and casters like Ashlynn and certain Minion Locks are happily running out of theme and still proving to be quite competative. Heck, Cygnar currently has one of the biggest non-theme casters in Sloan, who (like many casters, especially def-skew caster with access to WE) can't afford to give up flexibility for a couple of points. Sloan only ever wants Heavy Metal in my experience, it is the single best way of taking maximum amount of jacks and still have all the support she wants Reinholdt swings the math too far in her favor for me to agree, especially against targets like Reznik2.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 24, 2017 16:50:34 GMT
Sloan only ever wants Heavy Metal in my experience, it is the single best way of taking maximum amount of jacks and still have all the support she wants Reinholdt swings the math too far in her favor for me to agree, especially against targets like Reznik2. Fair enough if you want her to face Menoth, in my dealings with Menoth though you are more likely to get Amon and you don't have enough magic guns to chew through all his jacks
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Post by cygnarstronk on May 24, 2017 17:36:37 GMT
First off, calling people uninformed\ignorant isn't cool. Secondly, it is not theme lists as a concept that are currently taking over the meta, but specific themes. Oracles lets Legion play beast-heavy without giving up on support. Ghost Fleet gives cryx a really strong recursion game, and Denny1 turns all of those constantly recurring rifles up to 13. Irusk2 gets to take 70 WGI and still have room for field guns. ect ect. Yet, factions like PoM (outside of Amon,) and casters like Ashlynn and certain Minion Locks are happily running out of theme and still proving to be quite competative. Heck, Cygnar currently has one of the biggest non-theme casters in Sloan, who (like many casters, especially def-skew caster with access to WE) can't afford to give up flexibility for a couple of points. I'm sorry if I came out rude, uninformed wasn't intended as an insult. It's like not knowing the latest news, perfectly fine but you still don't know that. Theme forces are shaping the meta heavily. So heavily in fact, that it's rare to see out of theme cygnar lists right now.
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Post by Swampmist on May 24, 2017 20:34:57 GMT
Reinholdt swings the math too far in her favor for me to agree, especially against targets like Reznik2. Fair enough if you want her to face Menoth, in my dealings with Menoth though you are more likely to get Amon and you don't have enough magic guns to chew through all his jacks That's actually why I think reinholdt (and to a lesser extent Ayana&Holt) are important for her; force of magic weapons. Also, cygnarstronk as I said it's not theme forces as a concept that are shaping the meta, but specific themes. Legion still plays out-of-theme for hellmouths and Deathstalkers, PoM has like 1-2 good in-theme lists (Amon mostly,) Circle plays largely out of theme to get Sentry Stones with their WarpWolves, Ret plays out of theme for Sentinals almost as often as they play in theme, ect.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 24, 2017 21:11:41 GMT
Fair enough if you want her to face Menoth, in my dealings with Menoth though you are more likely to get Amon and you don't have enough magic guns to chew through all his jacks That's actually why I think reinholdt (and to a lesser extent Ayana&Holt) are important for her; force of magic weapons. Also, cygnarstronk as I said it's not theme forces as a concept that are shaping the meta, but specific themes. Legion still plays out-of-theme for hellmouths and Deathstalkers, PoM has like 1-2 good in-theme lists (Amon mostly,) Circle plays largely out of theme to get Sentry Stones with their WarpWolves, Ret plays out of theme for Sentinals almost as often as they play in theme, ect. I did not consider Aiyana and Holt (they are dead to me ) I guess if you take them plus Arlan you might have enough, guess I just don't build her to play Menoth, but I see now how you could
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Post by cygnarstronk on May 25, 2017 8:25:46 GMT
Fair enough if you want her to face Menoth, in my dealings with Menoth though you are more likely to get Amon and you don't have enough magic guns to chew through all his jacks That's actually why I think reinholdt (and to a lesser extent Ayana&Holt) are important for her; force of magic weapons. Also, cygnarstronk as I said it's not theme forces as a concept that are shaping the meta, but specific themes. Legion still plays out-of-theme for hellmouths and Deathstalkers, PoM has like 1-2 good in-theme lists (Amon mostly,) Circle plays largely out of theme to get Sentry Stones with their WarpWolves, Ret plays out of theme for Sentinals almost as often as they play in theme, ect. Oh sure, I was talking from a cygnar POW where themes are really dominating.
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