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Post by mikethefish on May 16, 2017 18:11:49 GMT
So as we all know, the general thought is that Convergence infantry is crappy.
Thing is, that whether or not our infantry is crappy, right now we simply aren't given an incentive to play them, since our theme list is so good.
Someday we shall get an infantry-based theme list (ie - the Grymkin model) and things shall be different, but what I was wondering is this: do you folks think our infantry is objectively bad, or is it just that Destruction Inititiative is just too good in comparison?
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rynth
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 6
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Post by rynth on May 17, 2017 1:02:36 GMT
IMO, our infantry is pretty bad.
Multiwound-wise: We're kinda pillow-fisted. Despite our wound count we're somewhat fragile since we typically start at only ARM 15. Point cost wise we're typically more on the expensive side of things.
10 man units: Obstructors are fairly cheap. Reductors a bit pricey. 12/15 is the defensive spread typically referred to a "victim stats," Obstructors/Reductors wish they were that good defensively.
Other infantry: Angels are, perhaps, a touch too expensive, and almost as fragile as the Obstructors/Reductors. Where other infantry have command attachments that enhance them we have a generic attachment that doesn't provide much of an enhancement to our units.
It is almost as though our infantry was balanced around something that has been mostly removed from the game and not received anything to make up for the loss.
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Post by Korianneder on May 17, 2017 12:18:42 GMT
There are a variety of reasons why we usually don't use our infantry. The 10 man units are cheap, but that's all they really have going for them. Obstructors and Reductors die to anything and our defensive tech is bringing a 4 point solo that only brings back three models that can't make attacks. Perforators are not very good for a variety of reasons. Eradicators, Reciprocators, and Angels are all decent, but not great.
The big issue is that we do very little to support our infantry. Other factions can gladly take a decent unit and make it amazing with caster or faction buffs. Take Man o War Shocktroopers for instance. They're decent, but then you add in the UA, you add in some sort of armor buff like inviable resolve or iron flesh, then you add in some sort of feat and now you've made them amazing. Our units have a UA that doesn't do much for most of them. Aurora is the only warcaster with a spell that only affects warrior models. That combined with the fact our jacks are pretty cheap and we have a theme force that encourages spamming jacks just means that I can take a galvanizer for the cost of a unit of Angels or three galvanizers for the cost of a unit of Eradicators and I can support them much better and get free servitors for them.
I think for our infantry to get used more we need a couple of different things to happen. An infantry focused theme force that gave free enigma foundries and maybe up the FA on enigma foundries would be useful. Another option would be to make enigma foundries better. I doubt they'll unnerf the recursion mechanic, but they could give the foundries a different ability. Maybe veteran leader (soul vessel) or a star action that gives warrior models in it's command a damage buff, kind of like the cephalyx agitator. A third option would actually be giving us some UA's designed to work well with the units. If obstructors had power swell as a minifeat or reductors had a UA that granted assault that would help them out. Or if we just had a caster that buffed infantry that would help as well. Aurora only really buffs speed, which is nice but doesn't feel like enough. If she had battle lust or last stand or something like that instead of arcane might that would go a long way to making our infantry more usable with her at least.
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Post by mikethefish on May 18, 2017 20:20:41 GMT
I disagree with the idea that Reciprocators are "not great". They are, in fact, the very definition of great. In the specific example of the Reciprocators, they are certainly an example of a unit that's perfectly useful, but are outshined by the usefulness of the theme list we have.
I certainly can't make much more convincing arguments for any of the other units, though.
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Post by rustedgear on May 19, 2017 4:01:22 GMT
If we had an infantry theme that was as great as our theme force, our infantry would see play.
The thing is, destruction initiative is arguably the best theme force in the game.
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Post by palabin on May 19, 2017 5:49:07 GMT
I think our infantry playability was too linked to the use of enigma foundries and the nerf to recursion saw them fall out of play...that being said with a good inf theme coupled with inf resurgence in 2017 steam roller ..I'd prob look at them...we not really gonna see a new theme till 2018 tho?....and when that comes are we getting potentially 2 new ones or just the one being a smaller faction?
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Post by palabin on May 19, 2017 5:53:21 GMT
Also for me with destruction initiative I found the AD on reflex servitors coupled with 2 inches more deploy covered most of what I used to take angels for ...also with sr2017 not being so punishing for slower armies to lose on scenario...can't see angels being used for that anymore
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Post by mikethefish on May 19, 2017 15:50:50 GMT
I think our infantry playability was too linked to the use of enigma foundries and the nerf to recursion saw them fall out of play...that being said with a good inf theme coupled with inf resurgence in 2017 steam roller ..I'd prob look at them...we not really gonna see a new theme till 2018 tho?....and when that comes are we getting potentially 2 new ones or just the one being a smaller faction? I think what you said about the Foundry is probably pretty spot on. My hope is that there will be a CID that deals with some of the CoC models when the book gets closer to release. I am fairly certain that Convergence will follow the Grymkin model, when it comes to theme forces. We shall probably get one theme that focuses on Vectors (ie - Destruction Initiative), and then one theme that focuses on infantry - basically mirroring Dark Menagerie and Bump in the Night, respectively
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Post by hephaestus on Aug 3, 2017 1:53:06 GMT
Supposedly, CoC in getting rolled into the CID this month. I can see them adding an Infantry theme (like the Preemptive Neutralization Force described in the Mk II Forces book), but I do wonder how they plan to run a good mixed theme without it being the whole of the Convergence army (a no-theme theme).
Our current theme list is jack spam / no offensive infantry, which has seen our clockwork soldiers relegated to the shelves. I do disagree slightly on the Enigma Foundries, though. The only way to run the foundries in super-recursion theme was with Axis' tier list. If you ran any of the other four casters then it was mostly how it is now in Mk III.
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Post by Korianneder on Aug 3, 2017 12:04:33 GMT
If you ran any of the other four casters then it was mostly how it is now in Mk III. That's not true at all. Enigma foundries, and most recursion in general, was hit pretty hard by nerfs. In mk2 I could bring back 6 obstructors with Aurora who could charge or make attacks. Now they have to forfeit combat action. So if the rest of the unit charges, the brought back models just get to advance and then end their activation. That's 6 fewer attacks you're getting each turn. Now you might be able to make the argument that with a new theme force and some point reductions and changes that this nerf can be worked around, but it's definitely worse than it was in Mk II.
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Post by hephaestus on Aug 3, 2017 17:32:14 GMT
That's not true at all. Enigma foundries, and most recursion in general, was hit pretty hard by nerfs. In mk2 I could bring back 6 obstructors with Aurora who could charge or make attacks. Now they have to forfeit combat action. So if the rest of the unit charges, the brought back models just get to advance and then end their activation. That's 6 fewer attacks you're getting each turn. Now you might be able to make the argument that with a new theme force and some point reductions and changes that this nerf can be worked around, but it's definitely worse than it was in Mk II. True enough. Though, I guess it matters more how you played them. I usually held them back so the front line was at the edge of their command range, and held back attached Transverse Enumerators to meet the distance requirements. It let my enemy chew through the unit, only to get charged by a fresh unit (at least min size) after a couple turns. Using one unit each Obstructor/Reductors, I could cycle out both squads once each in a standard game. But, given the distances, they couldn't charge anyways. Enigma Foudries are too easily shot off the table by ranged units unless you have an abundance of Shield Guard (not currently available in theme) or a heavy vector screen (which is kind of a waste to have min 20 points babysit a 4 point solo) to keep them alive.
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