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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 27, 2017 15:39:18 GMT
What I'm really intrigued by is what Goreshade's spell list and other rules will be. Given that, (from what limited amount I understand from spoilers) he was reborn with his history intact, that leaves up the possibility that his spell list will either have a fair amount of Cryx spells (Ghost Walk for starters makes a lot of sense), or just some other weird stuff. There's any number of directions they could go with it, and all of them have me interested. He has Revive. Other spells may not even matter.
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Post by Kallas on Mar 27, 2017 16:26:03 GMT
He has Revive. Other spells may not even matter. Well, he will presumably be 7 Focus (possibly 8 thanks to god-stuff) as his other incarnations have been, and Revive is expensive at Cost 3/forfeit combat action. He hasn't previously ever had a soul mechanic but Scyrah is supposed to be a part of the Iosan soul cycle, so he could inherit that from her though I'd expect not. With that in mind, I'm expecting that he's probably only capable of Reviving twice per turn which is fine, but it's likely going to be maybe one model per turn. Don't get me wrong I love the idea of Revive in Ret, I'm just sceptical about its actual, useable value.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 27, 2017 16:36:09 GMT
Personally, Revive seems likely to be the least useful part of his kit (barring some non-utility-nuke.) What does Ret have that you even want to revive? The only things I can think of that 'might' be worth reviving are Destors (though coming back at 1 hp, with no action, is painful) and potentially the new spears of Scyrah (reviving vengeance-ing shield guards seems...good.)
Field marshall arcane vortex seems much more interesting, as does the prospect of getting a feat that ISN'T just +dice to X.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 27, 2017 17:07:09 GMT
Personally, Revive seems likely to be the least useful part of his kit (barring some non-utility-nuke.) What does Ret have that you even want to revive? The only things I can think of that 'might' be worth reviving are Destors (though coming back at 1 hp, with no action, is painful) and potentially the new spears of Scyrah (reviving vengeance-ing shield guards seems...good.) Field marshall arcane vortex seems much more interesting, as does the prospect of getting a feat that ISN'T just +dice to X. Sentinels seem pretty solidly good for Revive. Even if they don't fight the turn you revive them, they will still benefit from Vengeance the next turn, meaning you keep the board presence of the unit pretty consistently high. FM Arcane Vortex is going to be great, especially since we'll have up to 9 models on the table with Empower (assuming the Arcanist unit is FA:2). That's a lot of extra focus to have for Firetrucking up peoples' spells.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on Mar 27, 2017 17:29:26 GMT
Sentinels seem pretty solidly good for Revive. Even if they don't fight the turn you revive them, they will still benefit from Vengeance the next turn, meaning you keep the board presence of the unit pretty consistently high. FM Arcane Vortex is going to be great, especially since we'll have up to 9 models on the table with Empower (assuming the Arcanist unit is FA:2). That's a lot of extra focus to have for Firetrucking up peoples' spells. Sents seem like I high value revive target they still are there for the vengeance. Also we have several jack's that benefit from camping focus from round to round. (Chimera, Hydra) so its not a complete waste to take advantage of Arcane Vortex.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 27, 2017 18:05:22 GMT
Personally, Revive seems likely to be the least useful part of his kit (barring some non-utility-nuke.) What does Ret have that you even want to revive? The only things I can think of that 'might' be worth reviving are Destors (though coming back at 1 hp, with no action, is painful) and potentially the new spears of Scyrah (reviving vengeance-ing shield guards seems...good.) Field marshall arcane vortex seems much more interesting, as does the prospect of getting a feat that ISN'T just +dice to X. Sentinels seem pretty solidly good for Revive. Even if they don't fight the turn you revive them, they will still benefit from Vengeance the next turn, meaning you keep the board presence of the unit pretty consistently high. FM Arcane Vortex is going to be great, especially since we'll have up to 9 models on the table with Empower (assuming the Arcanist unit is FA:2). That's a lot of extra focus to have for Firetrucking up peoples' spells. Sentinels are what, 1.8 points each? that's not a huge attrition swing for expending 3 focus a model bringing them back, especially if the mini feat has been used. Situationally I could see it, but it's corner case for sure. Revive on Haley3 is arguably her weakest spell, and she can both bring back stormlances and heal them with Gibbs - I don't see 2 sentinels for your caster's whole focus load as a good expenditure 99% of the time, especially given that sentinels are frontline units and thus unlikely to survive until they get to do anything. proc'ing vengeance is decent, but other than mini-feat turn, sentinels die fairly easily.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 27, 2017 20:30:44 GMT
Sentinels seem pretty solidly good for Revive. Even if they don't fight the turn you revive them, they will still benefit from Vengeance the next turn, meaning you keep the board presence of the unit pretty consistently high. FM Arcane Vortex is going to be great, especially since we'll have up to 9 models on the table with Empower (assuming the Arcanist unit is FA:2). That's a lot of extra focus to have for Firetrucking up peoples' spells. Sentinels are what, 1.8 points each? that's not a huge attrition swing for expending 3 focus a model bringing them back, especially if the mini feat has been used. Situationally I could see it, but it's corner case for sure. Revive on Haley3 is arguably her weakest spell, and she can both bring back stormlances and heal them with Gibbs - I don't see 2 sentinels for your caster's whole focus load as a good expenditure 99% of the time, especially given that sentinels are frontline units and thus unlikely to survive until they get to do anything. proc'ing vengeance is decent, but other than mini-feat turn, sentinels die fairly easily. Points aren't really what matters for attrition once you're actually on the table. A Sentinel is going to be a better pick than a Destor in most situations, because the damage output it represents is much higher (1~2 PS 12 weaponmaster swings each turn) while the difficulty to kill it after Revive is about the same. Obviously the other stuff he does will matter. But Revive on Sentinels is very interesting in terms of how much influence the unit puts out on the table, particularly because of Vengeance. Of course you won't be casting it twice a turn most turns, but the fact that it's on his spell card is a big factor all on it's own.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 27, 2017 21:14:43 GMT
I agree that points aren't what matters on the table, but disagree about the impact of having revive. In my experience, opponents avoid killing sentinels (because of vengeance) until they can kill a bunch of them in one turn. That means that in an average game, you're talking about reviving them on your turn three, and getting (maybe) work out of them on turn four.
Note that I'm NOT saying that reviving Destors is good use for the spell, generally - the reason stormlances work are (1) a single stormlance is capable of a crazy amount of work if it survives and (2) Gibbs enables them to be non-trivial to remove when revived. Tack on (3) the fact that Haley3 can revive 4 stormlances on feat turn, and it's a potentially decent trick that forces the opponent to play around it, even if you don't typically get it to work profitably. Reviving sentinels just doesn't have the same impact.
I can see corner case applications for the spell, and I'm not saying I'll never cast it, but it's not a gameplan altering spell, unless goreshade has amazingly synergistic tech to work with it.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 27, 2017 21:18:31 GMT
I agree that points aren't what matters on the table, but disagree about the impact of having revive. In my experience, opponents avoid killing sentinels (because of vengeance) until they can kill a bunch of them in one turn. That means that in an average game, you're talking about reviving them on your turn three, and getting (maybe) work out of them on turn four. Note that I'm NOT saying that reviving Destors is good use for the spell, generally - the reason stormlances work are (1) a single stormlance is capable of a crazy amount of work if it survives and (2) Gibbs enables them to be non-trivial to remove when revived. Tack on (3) the fact that Haley3 can revive 4 stormlances on feat turn, and it's a potentially decent trick that forces the opponent to play around it, even if you don't typically get it to work profitably. Reviving sentinels just doesn't have the same impact. I can see corner case applications for the spell, and I'm not saying I'll never cast it, but it's not a gameplan altering spell, unless goreshade has amazingly synergistic tech to work with it. Death Toll [Dawnguard] would be nice. But I'm not saying it's gameplan altering, either. Not for us, anyways. But it will have an impact on other players, who in my experience already overcommit to Sentinels as it is. The threat of having to kill even more of them is definitely useful, even if you never use it.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 27, 2017 21:32:58 GMT
I agree that points aren't what matters on the table, but disagree about the impact of having revive. In my experience, opponents avoid killing sentinels (because of vengeance) until they can kill a bunch of them in one turn. That means that in an average game, you're talking about reviving them on your turn three, and getting (maybe) work out of them on turn four. Note that I'm NOT saying that reviving Destors is good use for the spell, generally - the reason stormlances work are (1) a single stormlance is capable of a crazy amount of work if it survives and (2) Gibbs enables them to be non-trivial to remove when revived. Tack on (3) the fact that Haley3 can revive 4 stormlances on feat turn, and it's a potentially decent trick that forces the opponent to play around it, even if you don't typically get it to work profitably. Reviving sentinels just doesn't have the same impact. I can see corner case applications for the spell, and I'm not saying I'll never cast it, but it's not a gameplan altering spell, unless goreshade has amazingly synergistic tech to work with it. Death Toll [Dawnguard] would be nice. But I'm not saying it's gameplan altering, either. Not for us, anyways. But it will have an impact on other players, who in my experience already overcommit to Sentinels as it is. The threat of having to kill even more of them is definitely useful, even if you never use it. Lol, can you imagine? Sentinels with vengeance could each theoretically return 2 sentinels a turn, invictors could do it from range (and if you're living the dream with assault shots, also get two new models a turn)...revive WOULD be irrelevant in that army, but only because it would be utterly eclipsed by the passive recursion. On the other hand, imagine the Cryx tears if Ret got more efficient and useful recursion than they have...on the warcaster they're losing.
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Post by lyrael on Mar 27, 2017 22:50:14 GMT
I will admit, its fun to speculate on unreleased stuff.
But I suspect Revive will be a niche spell, not used most of the time because spending 3 focus to bring back a single wound model doesn't seem that good.
I don't know if this thread is the place for rampant speculation, but after spending a lot of time looking at what Shade1-3 had in common, I have some guesses as to what his spell list could be (using the fact that his history isn't erased, that he knows a lot of arcane lore, and that he's an 'offensive caster', which means closer to Elara2 than Helynna). Those guesses have me intrigued, and at least we only need to wait a few months to get Goreshade4.
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Post by phantasmagorium on Mar 27, 2017 23:10:01 GMT
I will admit, its fun to speculate on unreleased stuff. But I suspect Revive will be a niche spell, not used most of the time because spending 3 focus to bring back a single wound model doesn't seem that good. I don't know if this thread is the place for rampant speculation, but after spending a lot of time looking at what Shade1-3 had in common, I have some guesses as to what his spell list could be (using the fact that his history isn't erased, that he knows a lot of arcane lore, and that he's an 'offensive caster', which means closer to Elara2 than Helynna). Those guesses have me intrigued, and at least we only need to wait a few months to get Goreshade4. It's implied he'll be keeping some of his Cryxy-ness, based on the short story where Scyrah makes him a real boy again. Something about keeping his darkness along with his light. I'd bet on seeing Hex Blast or Scything Touch make appearances. Lamentation if we're lucky (seems frankly unlikely though, thanks to FM Arcane Vortex). Mage Blight if the devs are, like, super friggin high. Some sort of soul manipulation seems possible but unlikely - he's always messed with souls in the fluff (that's why he was so good at making Banes); now that he's not helping Banes stuff more souls into the void, he might do some sort of friendly soul collection (which would make Revive much more palatable, too). We also know he's going to be solid (but likely not amazing) at melee - he always has been, plus, he gave Ossyan shit that one time for not putting himself as intensely into his martial training as he did his arcane training. Shade doesn't do anything by half-measures.
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Post by lyrael on Mar 28, 2017 0:29:12 GMT
Well, my guesses as to his spells:
- Occultation (this is a fairly common Cryx spell, and he's had it on his last two versions, he probably keeps this. Most Ret casters have some buff they can give to their units, and this would be my guess as to his) - Ghost Walk (a very Cryx spell, but also likely to be his movement shenanigan if any) - Mortality (He's Goreshade, thus good at killing stuff, and this would be my guess as to his debuff if he gets any.) - Revive (no need to guess here, this one's been confirmed) - Frost Hammer (the now chosen wielder of the sword of the God of Winter and Champion of Scyrah I'd imagine would have a cold spell, and this would be my guess)
I think that spell list would probably see play, but leave enough room for Elara2 to do different things (who is also basically a Cryx caster with Marked for Death and Scything Touch). He probably gets Field Marshal Arcane Vortex instead of a dispel effect/Lamentation. His other rules I have no idea about.
But after putting my guess out there, I'm just going to try to tamp down expectations of all the Ret releases. Because they could be good, they could be not good, but I'm excited to play with them.
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Post by psycomonky on Mar 28, 2017 16:54:26 GMT
On the other hand the lyss healer protects friendly souls ala testament of menoth. If that served a purpose beyond fluff it would make sence that 4shade collects souls from all friendlies killed in x inches.
Taking enough infantry and turn their souls into sentinels could work out. And if you already have a healer or two then destors arent as dumb of an army choice. Though they have less souls per point.
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