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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 9, 2017 18:41:53 GMT
Well that's the issue. Scarsfells were fine in moderation too...so we're mad dogs. I'm not asking for a drastic change. You said yourself Siege is situational at best. All I'm asking is to take it away. Let them stall on Arm 20 Huge based models. You'll still take 2 and their impact only changes marginally for most games. They are still great slam bots. Id be fine with that but that wouldn't fix the complaints people have against them. increase the points on jacks that are undercosted (mostly in Khador.) Stop trying to ruin my fun! It would hurt balanced lists more then it would hurt spam lists!
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 9, 2017 18:46:35 GMT
Well that's the issue. Scarsfells were fine in moderation too...so we're mad dogs. I'm not asking for a drastic change. You said yourself Siege is situational at best. All I'm asking is to take it away. Let them stall on Arm 20 Huge based models. You'll still take 2 and their impact only changes marginally for most games. They are still great slam bots. Id be fine with that but that wouldn't fix the complaints people have against them. Part of the issue that I have with the state of Khador is that since Mk1, a major part of Khador's fluff has been that due to their restricted access to cortexes, they run fewer jacks, but the jacks they run are powerful. That's why they have no light warjacks. I feel that this aspect of Khador has dwindled to almost nothing at this point - there's very little meaningful difference between an 8-10 point 'heavy' warjack and a light warjack (in fact, all of the advantages are on the side of the cheap heavy.) There is just something intrinsically wrong to me about Khador becoming the jack spam faction. EDIT: to be clear, I'm not saying that Khador jacks should be worse, or should just get more expensive across the board. IMO, most of them should get better AND get more expensive, though there are a few that should just get more expensive (and a few that should just get better - for instance, a fair number of the character jacks.)
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Post by macdaddy on May 9, 2017 18:48:50 GMT
People are going to complain. That's inevitable. The question is can we make a change that allows for the most common ground. If we" nerf all the heavies" then Khador players will feel like they had thier jacks taken from them. If we leave them all the same then people continue to have an awful time facing them. We have to work together as a community to better the game as a whole. I was fully on board with Una 2 and scar fell nerfs because I knew that a Model with long leash and 3 decent pow melee weapons in a faction with Kaya 3 and Una 2 was just too abuseable. I was ok with Wurmwood nerfs because it was overbearing and negative for my opponents.
More people need to be willing to admit "hey this is actually bad for the game" instead of adamantly defending overbearing crap just because they like winning.
This is not a shot at you rowdy we both have already found common ground and I appreciate your ability to stay reasonable when the discussions become more intense.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 9, 2017 18:51:17 GMT
Part of the issue that I have with the state of Khador is that since Mk1, a major part of Khador's fluff Fluff has always been secondary (And doesn't make sense at all anyway). If in Fluff a Khadoran Jack could only be harmed by heavy artillery, with Guys with swords completely incapable of even harming them (Weaponmaster or not), would you find that enjoyable as well? Heck if the fluff just wrote that "Now that Lael is mostly integrated Khador has enough Cortex Material in order to produce a larger quality of Jacks" that would mostly instantly undo that fluff assertion.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 9, 2017 18:51:20 GMT
Id be fine with that but that wouldn't fix the complaints people have against them. Part of the issue that I have with the state of Khador is that since Mk1, a major part of Khador's fluff has been that due to their restricted access to cortexes, they run fewer jacks, but the jacks they run are powerful. That's why they have no light warjacks. I feel that this aspect of Khador has dwindled to almost nothing at this point - there's very little meaningful difference between an 8-10 point 'heavy' warjack and a light warjack (in fact, all of the advantages are on the side of the cheap heavy.) There is just something intrinsically wrong to me about Khador becoming the jack spam faction. I feel like at this point, once we start to argue over what a realistic number of giant fighting robots a Russian battle wizard should be able to control, we've gone down some strange rabbit hole...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 9, 2017 18:52:36 GMT
Macdaddy is biased. He uses Woldwraths and fulcrums. Siege threatens that. Rowdy is also biased. He doesn't want his jacks to cost more points. I am biased. I want beasts cheaper. Everyone has a different perspective and no ONE change is going to make everyone happy. If it's an important enough issue it will go through CID and be evaluated as best as possible. ( I think the threads getting a little to snippy/defensive) Right this very moment, every faction is seeing some amount of play. Many different factions are succeeding in tournaments. The game is doing really well, contrary to popular belief. We have established that Power Up is not the issue and does not need restriction. That was the point of the thread
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Post by macdaddy on May 9, 2017 18:54:58 GMT
Macdaddy is biased. He uses Woldwraths and fulcrums. Siege threatens that. woah woah woah there no need to point out my personal interests to the thread Honestly I had a problem with Siege Before I started using huge bases all the time ;D
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 9, 2017 18:58:33 GMT
Part of the issue that I have with the state of Khador is that since Mk1, a major part of Khador's fluff has been that due to their restricted access to cortexes, they run fewer jacks, but the jacks they run are powerful. That's why they have no light warjacks. I feel that this aspect of Khador has dwindled to almost nothing at this point - there's very little meaningful difference between an 8-10 point 'heavy' warjack and a light warjack (in fact, all of the advantages are on the side of the cheap heavy.) There is just something intrinsically wrong to me about Khador becoming the jack spam faction. I feel like at this point, once we start to argue over what a realistic number of giant fighting robots a Russian battle wizard should be able to control, we've gone down some strange rabbit hole... That's a fallacious argument. just because a game is set in a fantasy or sci-fi world doesn't mean you can or should throw internal consistency out the window - in fact, NOT doing so is one of the hallmarks of good sci fi. If you're watching Star Wars and Jedi are suddenly able to fly using the force, despite never having been able to do that in the past (despite the fact that it would have been a useful skill to have,) that's bad writing. And fluff may be secondary to rules mechanics, but that doesn't mean that faction identity should be thrown out the window. Circle doesn't get heavy cavalry because it's a sneaky forest faction. Cygnar doesn't get medium based infantry for....some reason. Khador doesn't get light jacks because of a shortage of cortexes (which, incidentally, was originally a case of fluff being used to justify a unique aspect of a faction's in-game identity.) Circumventing that core aspect of Khador's identity by giving them 'light jacks in all but name' feels wrong.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 9, 2017 19:02:04 GMT
As an aside, I think with the new scenarios in CID, right now is probably the worst time to discuss the merits of mostly-warjack armies. Maybe the changes to scenario will be enough?
Also I played a lot of Hark at the SOO and before, and I've on many occasions asked an opponent if they had any issues with my list, and no one has said that it was a bad time to play against (though in fairness it has a wide diversity of jacks). Incidentally, a few of my opponents this weekend were playing infantry spam. If it doesn't break the game Mad Dogs or Una2 style, I don't see why jackspam is bad while infantrymachine is acceptable, or why a "balanced list" (read: "some arbitrary jack/infantry ratio I want everyone to play close to") should be the goal.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 9, 2017 19:02:48 GMT
Circumventing that core aspect of Khador's identity by giving them 'light jacks in all but name' feels wrong. We never did. And we still don't get nor will ever get arcnodes. So make of that as you will. Even though thats the fluff aspect that makes the least amount of sense in the entire fluff.
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 9, 2017 19:10:47 GMT
I admittedly haven't read all the fluff, but some of the stuff that I have read has said that Harkevich is uniquely talented controlling many warjacks at a time, and doesn't like to risk his men when he can push hard with jacks. I know there is an issue with Khador not supposed to be having too many cortexes, but there is nothing to say that they didn't find more in South Khador (or Llael as some people call it), or that the shortage was never so bad that uniquely badass dudes like Karchev and Hark can't muster up seven or eight.
But if we limit Power Up to FOC, that won't make sense in the fluff either. Hark and other 6 focus jack casters will suffer, while all of the sudden FOC 7 infantry casters and FOC 8 spell-slingers will have more power up focus to fuel their jacks than casters like Hark. Does it really make sense in the fluff for Harby to hand out more power up focus than Hark?
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 9, 2017 19:11:34 GMT
Circumventing that core aspect of Khador's identity by giving them 'light jacks in all but name' feels wrong. We never did. And we still don't get nor will ever get arcnodes. So make of that as you will. Even though thats the fluff aspect that makes the least amount of sense in the entire fluff. When you have heavies that are cheaper than many faction's lights, they are lights in all but name. 7 point mad dogs were almost a cheap as the cheapest light jacks in the game (at 6 points.) 10 point marauders are right at the midpoint of light jack price ranges. Except they can trample, have heavy-level PS, and heavy-range boxes. Khador should not be the cheap jackspam faction. They just shouldn't. Even leaving aside power-level considerations (hint: it's too good at the moment, especially in SR2017 grindfests) it does not fit the fluff or the faction identity Khador has had since Mk1. crimsyn: I have no issue with power up as it stands - I think that a limit to power up would be a clunky fix at best. What I want is for the worst offenders in spam lists to get looked at and increased in cost, while the majority of beasts come down in points. That would help immensely to close the gap. Harkevich shouldn't be limited artificially in terms of how many jacks he can control, but I don't see a problem by effectively decreasing his ability to spam jacks by increasing the points costs of the jacks which are currently being spammed.
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Post by Cryptix on May 9, 2017 19:12:14 GMT
I admittedly haven't read all the fluff, but some of the stuff that I have read has said that Harkevich is uniquely talented controlling many warjacks at a time, and doesn't like to risk his men when he can push hard with jacks. I know there is an issue with Khador not supposed to be having too many cortexes, but there is nothing to say that they didn't find more in South Khador (or Llael as some people call it), or that the shortage was never so bad that uniquely badass dudes like Karchev and Hark can't muster up seven or eight. But if we limit Power Up to FOC, that won't make sense in the fluff either. Hark and other 6 focus jack casters will suffer, while all of the sudden FOC 7 infantry casters and FOC 8 spell-slingers will have more power up focus to fuel their jacks than casters like Hark. Does it really make sense in the fluff for Harby to hand out more power up focus than Hark? She's the Menoth Jesus. It kinda does....
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 9, 2017 19:21:04 GMT
When you have heavies that are cheaper than many faction's lights Slayer, Crusader, Modulator, Freebooter, Ghordson basher, Ghordson Driller, and the Warden also exist. The Berserker Chasis existed for many years before even MKII. Honestly you seem more bitter over spam then over any concern about """Fluf""". Not saying spam isn't a problem but don't hide behind fluff.
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Post by Cryptix on May 9, 2017 19:31:06 GMT
When you have heavies that are cheaper than many faction's lights Slayer, Crusader, Modulator, Freebooter, Ghordson basher, Ghordson Driller, and the Warden also exist. The Berserker Chasis existed for many years before even MKII. Honestly you seem more bitter over spam then over any concern about """Fluf""". Not saying spam isn't a problem but don't hide behind fluff. The slayer is fine because it follows the faction's identity, fast and hard-hitting glass cannons. Same with the warden - slow hyper-specialized defensively oriented brutes that need help hitting. Crusaders would be fine if not for a good portion of Menoth jacks being largely underwhelming outside of specific casters, Freebooter literally has literally one job and that is get to the enemy and disrupt things and not expect to get it back. The basher and driller are both hyper-specialized as a slam-bot and a slow easy to hit combat heavy respectively. What do all of these jacks share in common? They have a very specific niche, whiche is why they're cheap. Most factions have to pay a premium for an all-rounder. Not khador.
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