demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 4, 2017 22:24:43 GMT
Dude, you need to play deathclock. It's super rare that at the end of turn 1 I have used up more than, say, 7 or 8 minutes off my clock. That includes deployment. So I use, typically, 2 minutes to deploy and 6 minutes or so for turn 1 (Unless I'm playing a big gunline and go second and can make a lot of attacks bottom of 1.) Here's a quick check list: 1) Plan your turn while your opponent is taking his turn. 2) At the end of your opponents turn spend 30 seconds or less asking "what can I get to my opponent's caster?" If the answer is "a decent amount of attacks" then start contemplating an assassination. 3) Before the game begins you should realize what of your opponents' pieces will cause you a problem. You need to prioritize these pieces every turn. Low threat pieces do not warrant any concern. If you're playing Nemo1 with loads of heavies, ignore their crappy POW10 infantry. Priotitize the stuff that can hurt you. You should be taking 10 minute turns, maybe one turn should exceed that, but never 3. Not unless that turn will win you the game. I take almost everything my opponent does in stride. It doesn't matter to me. I can do nothing about what models my opponent removes so I brush off lost models totally (this isn't to say I don't worry about them being removed! By all means protect them!). If you've been playing for 2 years and never on a deathclock it is well beyond time you do so. alright, what I got from that was "I'm an elitist dickwad. You have to do stuff like me or you suck!" x.x There is a difference between insulting, bragging, and helping. Look up their definitions and keep the trolling for the trollbloods, yeah?
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Post by snarlyyow on Aug 4, 2017 23:24:09 GMT
Dude, you need to play deathclock. It's super rare that at the end of turn 1 I have used up more than, say, 7 or 8 minutes off my clock. That includes deployment. So I use, typically, 2 minutes to deploy and 6 minutes or so for turn 1 (Unless I'm playing a big gunline and go second and can make a lot of attacks bottom of 1.) Here's a quick check list: 1) Plan your turn while your opponent is taking his turn. 2) At the end of your opponents turn spend 30 seconds or less asking "what can I get to my opponent's caster?" If the answer is "a decent amount of attacks" then start contemplating an assassination. 3) Before the game begins you should realize what of your opponents' pieces will cause you a problem. You need to prioritize these pieces every turn. Low threat pieces do not warrant any concern. If you're playing Nemo1 with loads of heavies, ignore their crappy POW10 infantry. Priotitize the stuff that can hurt you. You should be taking 10 minute turns, maybe one turn should exceed that, but never 3. Not unless that turn will win you the game. I take almost everything my opponent does in stride. It doesn't matter to me. I can do nothing about what models my opponent removes so I brush off lost models totally (this isn't to say I don't worry about them being removed! By all means protect them!). If you've been playing for 2 years and never on a deathclock it is well beyond time you do so. alright, what I got from that was "I'm an elitist dickwad. You have to do stuff like me or you suck!" x.x There is a difference between insulting, bragging, and helping. Look up their definitions and keep the trolling for the trollbloods, yeah? I...guess? I mean, I didn't say that nor, upon re-reading it do I get that was what I was trying to say or sound like at all. But, if you wanna take it that way, who am I to stop you?
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Aug 7, 2017 10:02:07 GMT
Nevermind me -- opted against posting
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Aug 11, 2017 13:01:59 GMT
I'll chime in, as I'm the one taking the 17 minute turns here. I've got no illusions that I'm a good player, and as such, I'm not the least bit offended. As far as the advice I've asked for and received here, I appreciate it. I'll take some and leave some. I'm likely not going to play deathclock. I get to play one game a month if I'm lucky - I've played 7 so far in 2017. I do obsess about this game and spend time every day thinking about it, but I don't get much free time in my life, and a result of not practicing is that I'm not a great player. When I do get a chance to play, I'd rather have fun than win. Of course I'm going to try to win. But if it's a choice between losing a game and having a blast doing it versus stressing out and eking out a win, I'll take the fun game every time. It's my luck that I only ever play warmachine with 3 other guys who are also not the best players.
I do try to plan my turn during my opponent's turn, and I've found that nearly always, his final activation or two requires me to completely change my plan. As for the rest, they're things that I try to remember but end up forgetting during the excitement of an all-too-rare actual game. I'm always going to try to improve, but I'm not sure I'll ever end up with an entire day free to play in a tournament.
I'm aware that my primary problem is the fact that I just don't get to play that often. I know that most of my warmachine time is the time I spend thinking about the game while at work or posting on forums. Heck, I struggle most weeks to get an hour by myself to assemble/paint models. I've got kids, a house to maintain, and a marriage to maintain. It all takes time. All I know is that I spent 20 minutes last night painting the legs of my new storm strider. I snapped one of the damned legs in half and now I need to pin and glue the damn thing, but I still enjoyed the process.
Sorry, I'm rambling now. I guess it's better than my thread turning into an internet argument, which was my fear.
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Post by GumbaFish on Aug 11, 2017 15:17:10 GMT
I'd say I start thinking about things I could do during my opponent's turn but I don't get married to any one plan while they are still activating models. When it is my turn I generally try to assess what my goals are for that turn such as clearing a zone, setting up an assassination, removing some key pieces etc... and think about what needs to happen to achieve that goal. If I feel like I am overthinking this process I will then allocate focus and begin my turn with some of my less critical activations just to get myself going and allow me some extra time to think. I find starting to move some models and do things gets me going and I prefer this as opposed to planning out my whole turn ahead of time. I also try not to get too locked into a plan on my turn because I may realize there is an assassination attempt I didn't initially see, or I'll have to over commit to clear a zone etc... I know you said you don't want to play on the clock, but I find that even if I start a timer and don't use it as a win condition I tend to play faster simply because I am aware of how long my turns are taking.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Aug 11, 2017 16:56:51 GMT
I know you said you don't want to play on the clock, but I find that even if I start a timer and don't use it as a win condition I tend to play faster simply because I am aware of how long my turns are taking. We've actually done that! Probably should do it more, honestly. For a while we tried out this double-death-clock thing where each player had two hours. I never ended up using even 90 minutes, but I did play faster. I'd kind of forgotten about that, since the last time we played that way was (checks log) February 2016.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Aug 31, 2017 17:12:26 GMT
The best way I've seen it put (that I've now adopted) is:
"What scares you (the player) the most?"
Not in the literal, spooky scary, meaning. But what on the other side of the field is the most intimidating/scary/influential to you and your plans. Focus on that and what you feel comfortable dedicating to it.
So example - I'm scared of my opponent's wall of jacks, but not afraid of their infantry. I could make two choices; deploy away from the jacks to be safe, or counter deploy to defeat the jacks first. So you then just weigh which you feel more comfortable with. It might not be the "right" choice per say. But even if it doesn't go well you learn and it changes your comfort zone.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Aug 31, 2017 19:23:08 GMT
as far as deployment goes, pro players have a pretty equal goal for the first turn.
If you go first:
take as much of the field as possible. limit your opponent's options. Position your units to take advantage of the terrain first.
If you go second:
Analyze the terrain and scenario positions. Analyze where your opponent's units are standing determine if you are going to assassinate or win on scenario. position your units to give you the greatest chance at your desired outcome.
Of course, smarter players prefer to go second, while power players prefer to go first. This is largely because the second player has the choice of which side of the board to use, which gives them a strict advantage of determining what the best possible outcomes will be. Power players, however, tend to make lists that "claim the field," eliminating the terrain features on his half of the board from affecting his list's playstyle. An example of a power player list would be a Xerxis2 Skorne list; he gives all of his battlegroup +2 spd. By using the animus "Rush" from the gladiator, he can also give them +2 movement and pathfinder. With this, even though his beasties start of at 4 spd, they can run as if they were 6 spd with pathfinder, eliminating rough terrain on his side of the board from hindering his forces and only needing to focus on the enemy's half. Even better, the 7 inch deployment + 12 inch run + 2 inch Rush = 21 inches, 3 inches off half the board. Now, if the opponent wants to claim any zones or domination points, he must put himself into the charge range of one of Xerxis2's beasts... and X2s alpha turn is not to be taken lightly x.x; His feat is basically the Manifest Destiny spell
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on Sept 7, 2017 11:28:43 GMT
and X2s alpha turn is not to be taken lightly x.x; His feat is basically the Manifest Destiny spell Reading this made me sad. Skorne is so weak, what other casters can do every round, we can only produce as a single feat. Haha, but X2 is pretty awesome.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Oct 10, 2017 13:13:52 GMT
I'm planning on playing in a Steamroller Tournament. That being the case, I tried playing a game on deathclock. It went... not well. Battle Report LinkDeployment: Didn't start the clock until turn 1 Turn 1: 8 minutes. Yay! Turn 2: 26 minutes. Whoops. That was a bit long. Turn 3: 19 minutes. Yow, okay, I've got 6 minutes left. I did all the things. I hurried my turn. I planned during my opponent's turn. I rushed a lot during activations. I skipped doing the thing where I arrange all my cards in the order I plan to activate them. I went as fast as I could. I tried to focus on goals/priorities. And I hurried. Things that probably took up a lot of extra time: I was playing against forge guard spam with tough, and there were lots of tough checks. I was playing Nemo with two fireflies and a Storm Strider, so there were lots of lightning generator leaps. Those took a long time. And I was playing against Durgen, and my guys ended up on fire a lot, so that took some extra time too. My new plan is to just not bring Nemo. He's an attrition caster, and using attrition to your advantage only works if you don't clock out before you get there. I need to focus on scenario or assassination. That said, I'm now considering Stryker1/Caine2. I want to build the absolute simplest list I can, with the fewest models I can. Boy, I wish I owned a colossal. My new goal is not to win games, it's to not clock out.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 10, 2017 13:45:30 GMT
Things that probably took up a lot of extra time: I was playing against forge guard spam with tough, and there were lots of tough checks. I was playing Nemo with two fireflies and a Storm Strider, so there were lots of lightning generator leaps. Those took a long time. And I was playing against Durgen, and my guys ended up on fire a lot, so that took some extra time too. My new plan is to just not bring Nemo. He's an attrition caster, and using attrition to your advantage only works if you don't clock out before you get there. I need to focus on scenario or assassination. That said, I'm now considering Stryker1/Caine2. I want to build the absolute simplest list I can, with the fewest models I can. Boy, I wish I owned a colossal. My new goal is not to win games, it's to not clock out. Learning to roll and accurately determine hit/damage quickly can also be important. Do you roll column separately from damage or roll a coloured dice with the damage dice? Any decisions and/or rolls are technically on your opponent's clock, so deciding whether or not to overboost power field or transfer, marking damage (during this time you can actually just keep rolling the next attacks, if any), making tough rolls, counter charges, etc. are legal grounds to switch the clock. Normally if my opponent is quick enough, a few lost seconds won't matter much: if the tough dice leaves his hand as soon as the damage roll is known, you will have to swap the clock back to you as soon as you've managed to hit it anyway, but every little bit can help.
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Oct 10, 2017 14:17:25 GMT
Learning to roll and accurately determine hit/damage quickly can also be important. Do you roll column separately from damage or roll a coloured dice with the damage dice? I do roll column and damage simultaneously, although I've often wondered how much of a difference that 2-3 seconds really makes. Any decisions and/or rolls are technically on your opponent's clock, so deciding whether or not to overboost power field or transfer, marking damage (during this time you can actually just keep rolling the next attacks, if any), making tough rolls, counter charges, etc. are legal grounds to switch the clock. Normally if my opponent is quick enough, a few lost seconds won't matter much: if the tough dice leaves his hand as soon as the damage roll is known, you will have to swap the clock back to you as soon as you've managed to hit it anyway, but every little bit can help. I also did roll the next attack(s) while he was looking up the next model in his warroom to mark damage. But switching the clock every 4 seconds for 1 second each time seems like kind of a dick move. And I understand that you're talking about theoretically in a tournament scenario. In this case, I was clocking myself on my phone, and it took something like 10 seconds to wake up the screen, unlock the phone, and stop the timer. But I really only ever did that twice anyway, so it wasn't a real factor.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Oct 10, 2017 14:20:17 GMT
Learning to roll and accurately determine hit/damage quickly can also be important. Do you roll column separately from damage or roll a coloured dice with the damage dice? I do roll column and damage simultaneously, although I've often wondered how much of a difference that 2-3 seconds really makes. Any decisions and/or rolls are technically on your opponent's clock, so deciding whether or not to overboost power field or transfer, marking damage (during this time you can actually just keep rolling the next attacks, if any), making tough rolls, counter charges, etc. are legal grounds to switch the clock. Normally if my opponent is quick enough, a few lost seconds won't matter much: if the tough dice leaves his hand as soon as the damage roll is known, you will have to swap the clock back to you as soon as you've managed to hit it anyway, but every little bit can help. I also did roll the next attack(s) while he was looking up the next model in his warroom to mark damage. But switching the clock every 4 seconds for 1 second each time seems like kind of a dick move. And I understand that you're talking about theoretically in a tournament scenario. In this case, I was clocking myself on my phone, and it took something like 10 seconds to wake up the screen, unlock the phone, and stop the timer. But I really only ever did that twice anyway, so it wasn't a real factor. Every second matters when you're going for a hail mary assassination in 10 seconds when you could've had a minute I'm not saying you should switch the clock if whatever your opponent is doing doesn't impede your own game play, but as soon as you're waiting, then consider tapping it over.
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demonic
Junior Strategist
Posts: 649
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Post by demonic on Oct 12, 2017 2:30:38 GMT
what he's basically trying to say is that your opponent can purposely take a long time on rolls during your turn, meaning you clock even though you shouldn't have. In these cases, on tournament level play, the opposing player can be penalized for spending too much time dawdling around during your clock by having all off-turn content placed on his clock instead. Yes, this means if your opponent is taking 10 seconds to look up the def and arm of his models every turn, he can be penalized 10 additional seconds every turn. Warroom is great, just not on something with a sleep screen or password to get through every time you need to take a look.
Another thing to consider, when you play the same list over and over, you'll start to play it faster and faster. The more often you play against a specific faction, the faster you'll get at playing against that faction. This is because you'll slowly start to no longer need to ask things about different models, or the questions completely change. "Do you have that +2 def and arm animus up?" becomes "Is krea aura up?" which becomes *measure 3 inches away from the krea and start rolling* "Does he have cover?" becomes *measure an inch from obstacle, begin to roll dice* "Does that jack have ashen veil?" becomes "def+2"
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gmonkey
Junior Strategist
I, for one, welcome our Infernal Overlords.
Posts: 313
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Post by gmonkey on Oct 23, 2017 13:37:45 GMT
So I did the tournament this weekend, and I succeeded in not clocking out at all. I'm not sure how much of a victory that is, since round one I conceded with 6 minutes left since I had nearly no models left on the table, round two I got assassinated, and round three I had a bye and played a game without a clock. But I didn't time out!
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