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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 29, 2017 1:48:51 GMT
As a casual follower of the fluff Im wondering certain things about the protectorate:
Why didn't Menoth do any of this guff before? Why NOW? Why does he bust out the armies and the holy robots now?
Why not during the orgoth when his faith was the most powerful? Seems kinda like a bully to me.
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 29, 2017 5:08:04 GMT
As a casual follower of the fluff Im wondering certain things about the protectorate: Why didn't Menoth do any of this guff before? Why NOW? Why does he bust out the armies and the holy robots now? Why not during the orgoth when his faith was the most powerful? Seems kinda like a bully to me. who can understand the mind of a God.... well Doug Seacat can. As for the bully comment, that kind of talk will get you wracked around here. Ok joking aside I don't think there is a better reason for Menoth kicking stiff into gear, then faithful showed that they where ready to spread the word though blood and fire. Plus after years of being treated like crap Menoth thought they had proved themselves worthy via their suffering.
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wanderingone375
Baby's First Wargame
Ba wee granna wee ninny bon!!!!!
Posts: 8
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Post by wanderingone375 on Apr 29, 2017 20:51:52 GMT
Also what you have to remember that this is the first time in a long while that the protectorate has consistently had a strong Hierarch. Usually one would take hold, do some great thing and then die heroically or some such. Then it would take time for some one to gain enough power to take hold. Voyle laid the ground work and started the protectorate moving towards war. Upon his death, Severous almost immediately took over, an event that was almost unheard of and continued Voyle's war, especially the northern crusade. I'm really curious as what is going to happen to us now.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 29, 2017 22:15:50 GMT
I mean before. Menoths in this game to begin with because he couldn't stop the Orgoth?
Why is magic evil but the machines are fine but only for killing?
Honestly Menoths Lawful Evil (Simplistic morality I know) until proven otherwise. He can send down visions about which warmachines to construct to murder the heathens but can't send down visions on how to run his empire so everybody is content yet willing to worship him.
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 29, 2017 22:59:07 GMT
The magic part of it comes from the fact the the first magic humans used came from the devouer worm, Menoth's arch enemy.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 29, 2017 23:37:56 GMT
The magic part of it comes from the fact the the first magic humans used came from the devouer worm, Menoth's arch enemy. So whats the argument about the Orgoth then? To surrender to them until he might ordain Humanity with some gift to get them out of there?
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Post by WolfsSOL on Apr 30, 2017 1:48:48 GMT
Punishment for the growing worship of Morrow
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 30, 2017 1:52:21 GMT
Punishment for the growing worship of Morrow Yeah Menoths just a cruel Bully.. I wonder....Could humanity just fight off the Devourer Wurm under Morrows Banner? If menoth needs worshippers that terribly that he would cause so much suffering to get them: Doesn't that imply a degree of desperation and need? I think he's afraid of getting replaced.
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Apr 30, 2017 2:33:58 GMT
Seacat indicated that we should consider some outside the box thinking and said that Menoth may not be as powerful as the menites think he is, adding, "Menoth may have spent most of his power already." Hey also suggested the possibility that Menoth may be preoccupied.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 30, 2017 2:37:06 GMT
Seacat indicated that we should consider some outside the box thinking and said that Menoth may not be as powerful as the menites think he is, adding, "Menoth may have spent most of his power already." Hey also suggested the possibility that Menoth may be preoccupied. That might be interesting. Still hes probably a cruel tyrant by nature, but Im wondering whats going on... And it will never be answered because then the game is over!
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thelat
Junior Strategist
Posts: 480
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Post by thelat on Apr 30, 2017 5:18:58 GMT
Seacat indicated that we should consider some outside the box thinking and said that Menoth may not be as powerful as the menites think he is, adding, "Menoth may have spent most of his power already." Hey also suggested the possibility that Menoth may be preoccupied. That might be interesting. Still hes probably a cruel tyrant by nature, but Im wondering whats going on... And it will never be answered because then the game is over! Well, Menoth won't let any information that might undermine the faith get out. The gods all clearly get something out of worship.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 2, 2017 13:55:29 GMT
You also forget the one major event that's happened in recent history: the appearance of our fave floaty girl, the Harbinger of Menoth.
She's the one who A) shepherded Severius to the Hierarchy B) Instigated the massive influx of people into the Protectorate, therefore giving Cygnar a piece of the casus belli needed to invade Sul, and C) Begin the Northern Crusade because of a vision of something horrible going on in the Thornwood.
It's been said that the Harbinger's appearance is the single greatest religious event to occur in recent history.
Also, we have definitely seen that the "gods" of the Iron Kingdoms are not your typical omnipresent/omniscient deities we associate with the "god" classification. As is seen with the gods of Ios, they can be killed or weakened sufficiently. That leads credence to the fact that Menoth cannot interfere with the affairs of the Protectorate directly (instead doing so indirectly through answered prayers, miracles, and visions through chosen representatives) because he's off doing something else, whether its to battle the Devourer (symbolizing the eternal struggle between nature and civilization) or safeguarding the City of Man in Urcaen.
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Post by gargs454 on May 2, 2017 15:20:50 GMT
Honestly, you could make this same argument about almost every god in every setting. Especially those with fiction centered around the "faithful" rather than the gods. In a nutshell, if the gods can solve all the problems then you don't need the heroes. If we assume for arguments sake that Menoth could have simply wiped the Orgoth from the face of Caen, and he had in fact done so, then well, what does the Protectorate ever have to fear? As long as they remain faithful, they would be unstoppable. Unless of course Morrow intervened. Or the Devourer Worm. Or the elven gods. Or the dragons, etc., etc. The point is, all of a sudden the story is no longer about the warcasters and warlocks and trenchers and knights, etc., but rather, about the super powerful gods and god-like beings. It also then makes the game more like playing chess but only with pawns.
As for the warjacks vs. magic. I think the issue there is that its largely a "convenience". Technically, the warjacks are heretical. However, we have a choir boy sing to them and therefor they become blessed. As for the Avatar, perhaps Menoth finally decided that warjacks were a necessary evil. Churchill once said that he'd sleep with the devil himself in order to defeat Hitler. That was in reference to allying with Stalin. Same perhaps goes for Menoth and warjacks. Or Feora for that matter who may well be a mage disguised as a priestess.
Finally, I also think the simplest answer is that the gods are not as all powerful as gods would like to believe. The latest book, in my mind, gives a hint to that effect. I mean sure, Menoth engages in some bad assery, but certainly not so much as to indicate that he's an all powerful, unstoppable force.
Sure, he likes to have his followers prove their faith by maintaining their faith even when times are tough. Sure, you could argue that this is him being a bully. But then, you could also argue that if people are only faithful when times are really good, that they aren't really faithful at all. How then do you prove their faith except by testing it?
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Post by marijnh on May 2, 2017 20:32:26 GMT
Menoth does not directly influence stuff on Caen - he grants power to his priests to do it for him. He speaks directly to the Harbinger who then acts as intermediary, but everyone else just interprets the holy scripts their own way. The more power you get, the more you're on the right track.
In the novel Godless it is actually explained pretty well. Suffering brings one closer to Menoth - but just to endure the suffering isn't gonna get anything done. If you want to stand up and do something about it, and your faith in Menoth is true, he will give you power. If you just piously endure the suffering you'll end up in the City of Man in the afterlife allright - you're just not gonna get anything extra.
Menoth does not make people suffer (unless they've done something wrong). He's just not going to fix peoples' problems if they aren't going to try to do something about it themselves.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 2, 2017 20:58:40 GMT
Menoth does not directly influence stuff on Caen - he grants power to his priests to do it for him. He speaks directly to the Harbinger who then acts as intermediary, but everyone else just interprets the holy scripts their own way. The more power you get, the more you're on the right track. And most of his powerful are utter mass murdering near-sadists and the Harbinger seems not to give a crap about the suffering she witnesses brought about by her own faction. Or her craps are minor in comparison to bringing suffering to people that are not worshipping menoth (So when they do they can have some suffering heaped apon them as well). Reminder that Cleansers primarily existed to punish their own before being a military weapon. With the explicit description of prefering to wound the harmed instead of killing them, so their deaths may be more horrific and complete. No Mention of Everblight or draconic blights being the targets (And not that they had much influence in the protectorate before recently). I love how it mentions how burning those ACCUSED of Blasphemy. Not those CONVICTED. How convenient and utterly specific. Not Morrow or Thamar require suffering. They like action as well, but funnily enough nothing written about immense suffering being needed to get closer to them. Well in his eyes not being utterly devoted to him, or being born the wrong way (Magical) is being wrong, so worth the immense torture and suffering he will inflict on you. And my point being is that he's willing to inflict all this suffering on people under his control, and willing to influence people with plans for horrific and mighty deathmachines, yet is completely unwilling (Or Incapable) of fighting off the Orgoth when his faith was at the most powerful. He can't cure a plague, but he can send the plans for more deathmachines. He is a weak Tyrant of hypocrisy and ignorance. The only thing that sorta deflects him from accusations of being an utter monster is the potential that he really needs souls up in His place or whatever in order to defeat the Devourer Wurm. But the question always is if he needs souls that bad, is it possible that those souls could also do such heavy lifting under the banner of another god?
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