Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on May 19, 2017 15:59:13 GMT
That list looks like an elaborate troll at first glance, with a huge number of purposeful and unnecessary sub-optimal choices. The myrmidon loadout in particular is an affront to common sense and basic synergy, compounded by the dearth of Arcanists.
I love it.
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Post by Sylvos on May 19, 2017 16:28:38 GMT
I've been using this line up since the theme's release.
Retribution of Scyrah - The Blade of Retribution
Theme: Shadows of the Retribution 2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Garryth, The Blade of Retribution - WJ: +29 - Moros - PC: 11 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11) - Banshee - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18) - Sphinx - PC: 13
Mage Hunter Assassin - PC: 0 Mage Hunter Assassin - PC: 4 Nayl - PC: 3 Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 0 Soulless Voidtracer - PC: 2 Soulless Voidtracer - PC: 2
Mage Hunter Strike Force - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Mage Hunter Strike Force Commander - PC: 4 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1 Mage Hunter Infiltrators - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Eiryss, Mage Hunter Commander - PC: 6 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1 Spears of Scyrah - Leader & 2 Grunts: 9 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1
I've been really enjoying it as it really echoes the old "Assassins" tiered theme list from MK2 that I used to run Garryth with. (Also, Garryth is the best so yeah).
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Post by tontonkal on May 20, 2017 10:04:21 GMT
What I have been using so far with Issyria:
Theme: Shadows of the Retribution 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Issyria, Sibyl of Dawn - WJ: +29 - Chimera - PC: 8 - Helios - PC: 34 (Battlegroup Points Used: 29)
Mage Hunter Assassin - PC: 0 Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 0 Mage Hunter Assassin - PC: 0 Arcanist Mechanik - PC: 2
Mage Hunter Strike Force - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Mage Hunter Strike Force Commander - PC: 4 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1 Mage Hunter Strike Force - Leader & 9 Grunts: 16 - Mage Hunter Strike Force Commander - PC: 4 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1 Spears of Scyrah - Leader & 2 Grunts: 9 - Eiryss, Mage Hunter Commander - PC: 6 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1 - Soulless Escort - PC: 1
It's mainly designed against warmachine, trying to setup a ktc feat turn. Soulless can proc vengeance out of formation for the spears and eyriss3, which is kind of silly. Helios offers some push options and a place to hide for Issyria. Spears, eyriss3, phantom barrage, assassins and Narn all try to get a way to ktc with a blinding light support.
The list is surprisingly fast with first turn and crusader's call.
I like the list so far, might replace the helios for 2 banshees for additional long range kd support but I see more anti-kd tech at the moment than anti-push.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on May 21, 2017 8:35:27 GMT
First I want say that my Thyron list would have a serious disadvantage in SR2016, where most competive lists rely on deathclock* or full frontal assault that ends in attrition win**. In SR2017 these strategies are far less effective***.
Thyron and Shadows of the Retribution Thyron doesn't support full frontal assaults because he doesn't have a good defensive upkeep or an easy-to-use feat****. Shadows of the Retribution doesn't support full frontal assaults either, because mage hunters rely on stealth, distance and high DEF to stay alive. I mean, if the enemy can't remove DEF14 ARM11 stealth models from the center of the board, then I guess you can and should do full frontal assaults. My experience is that most armies can do that trivially, even if they can't ignore stealth. But fear not my fellow pointy-ears, Thyron and Shadows of the Retribution are both very good at guerrilla tactics. In the following posts, I will explain them in more detail. Feel free to comment.
Cleave is good, but field marshal: cleave is trap Problem with Thyron battlegroup jacks is that focus spend on Thyron does more dmg than focus spend on a jack. Concentrated power and power up don't change the fact that MAT6 sucks, charging costs focus and big warjacks are ideal targets for enemy shenanigans. Oh and Remembrance also ignores tough and can remove models from game if you play Thyron in theme. Because of these reasons, Thyron battlegroup should use only the minimal amount of points and support flanking maneuvers with arc node. My personal favorite is 2 Chimeras and 2 Aspis.
Narn is my warcaster attachment A major problem with playing Thyron aggressively is that smart opponents try to block his movement with warrior models. Thyron doesn't have parry and DEF15 is somewhat easy to hit with free strikes. If Thyron doesn't move, enemy can send a heavy to kill him. Friendlies can try to clear the way, but might end up blocking optimal landing spots or charge lanes. Luckily for us, the theme gives free Narn, which has unique warcaster support ability, called "charge over friendlies, kill blocking warrior models and sprint away". Just remember to keep Narn behind Thyron he will be fine.
Thyron is deployed to middle, runs for cover If you have done everything correctly, you should now have a warcaster that isn't hamstrung by large battlegroup and thanks to nearby Narn, can largely ignore any attempts to slow him down. To use this flexibility to the fullest, deploy Thyron to the middle and use the 1st turn to run to a place where he can't be killed. Flanks, LoS blocking forest, trenches are ideal places.
Speed of Death is the best upkeep in the game Elara1 Speed of Death basically gives your heavies reposition 6" (or 5"if you are running Vyre jacks) and immunity to free strikes. It's so good that it's almost broken. It allows our jacks to advance, shoot and then back away to safety. It allows our heavies to take turns in piling on nearby enemy heavy in melee. Just remember to keep your distance/block Los/keep Aspis nearby, so that Elara1 isn't killed.
Mage hunters are cowardly killers Like I stated previously, mage hunters aren't very good at frontal assaults. If your list has only one MHSF unit, you can deploy them to a flank, which is ill equipped to kill them. Keep your distance, back away and harass. Backed by storm ragered MHA and possibly Thyron, you should be able to cause a lot of trouble for the enemy without taking too many casualties.
* A common tactic was to bait your opponent to use his time to score, while making sure he didn't have real possibility to get 5 CP. In an ideal situation, the opponent lost to deathclock with 4 CP. You had 1 minute left and 0 CP.
** Opponent is forced to surrender attrition edge to prevent scenario loss. A good frontal assault was usually carried out by durable, hard-hitting models, backed by defensive upkeep and easy-to-use feat. Example: Haley2 stormwall with AS.
*** If you are a ahead of control points and haven't suffered serious casualties, you can probably delay the game to round 7 and win. Using full frontal assault is also less efficient, because warcaster domination has been removed, scenario areas are far apart, 6 points are required and you can effectively reduce opponent’s scenario points by scoring yourself. In short defensive upkeeps and feats are less effective.
**** Generally speaking, RoS feats are more difficult to master (read: less effective) than other factions feats. IMHO, only Helynna has a simple feat (probably because she is a battlebox caster and battlebox casters are designed for newbies).
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Post by deadlyninjacat on May 22, 2017 17:44:56 GMT
But Tanan what about the 3 jacks on your Jr caster?....that feels like a lot? Maybe I'm just worried that she would get taken out and then my jacks are sitting around. Or maybe I just need to play more aggressively.
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Post by Tom_Bombadil_ on May 22, 2017 21:34:27 GMT
But Tanan what about the 3 jacks on your Jr caster?....that feels like a lot? Maybe I'm just worried that she would get taken out and then my jacks are sitting around. Or maybe I just need to play more aggressively. That's my fear, Elara is a fairly safe model but thats in part because people do not often hard focus her but with 37 points on her that a big risk.
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Post by Demeritus on May 22, 2017 23:51:54 GMT
I'm also curious about why double chimera and also why so many jacks on Elara.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on May 25, 2017 6:15:44 GMT
Keeping Elara safe is far easier than most people realize. Sure, in most cases she can't be deployed to the center of the board, unless there significant LoS block or cover available and even then I would think twice. Clever opponents can find a way to negate terrain.
If you planning to shoot with Elara's Manticores, she can be 22" (8" (CTRL) + 2" (Manticore base) + 12" (Manticore RNG)) away from nearest enemy and Manticores can still trigger Speed of Death. That's pretty far away. If distance can't be used to keep her safe, remember that you can very easily LoS block with her battlegroup jacks thanks to Speed of Death. Whatever the situation, it's usually a good idea to keep an Aspis within 3" of her just to be safe. To be honest, I'm really worried only about boostable assault sprays, because those ignore cover, concealment, LoS and can't redirected by shield guard.
There are several reasons for double chimeras: - Light warjacks are very durable for their point cost --> If you want a durable battlegroup, take light warjacks. - Thyron has lousy battlegroup abilities --> Minimum battlegroup is optimal. - Thyron has 27 WJPs and there are only four different light jacks --> Choose 4 light jacks. I personally dislike the Griffon, because in order to earn its points back you need to get it into melee, preferably fully loaded with concentrated power --> Focus burden for Thyon and costs even more points. I want my battlegroup to do its job without any support from anyone, so I'm basically choosing between Aspis, Chimera and Gorgon. - Thyron wants to be in melee killing dudes and not getting killed --> Thyron placement is critical. You don't want to make it more difficult (and slower) by worrying about casting upkeeps (RNG, activation order, LoS etc.). Chimera makes casting these upkeeps very easy. Having two Chimeras means that every model in the list can receive a upkeep. - Thyron's upkeeps are all situational, require a single target (no unit upkeeps) and have RNG of 6. If you cast them during turn 1, you are forfeiting running and usually wasting focus on upkeeping them. A better option is to camp everything and run to a more favorable position. Only cast spells when you absolutely need them. Example1: Enemy warjack foolishly advances within 12" of Elara's Manticore. Example2: MHA needs to hit a Warpwolf.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on May 25, 2017 6:34:42 GMT
By the way, I'm participating in a small local tournament this weekend. The Thyron list is my Hordes/Infantry drop*. My warmachine/jack drop is:
Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Shadows of the Retribution (Kaelyssa 1) Kaelyssa, the Night's Whisper [+29] - Aspis [6] - Aspis [6] - Aspis [6] - Chimera [8] - Chimera [8] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Arcanist Mechanik [2] Elara, Tyro of the Third Chamber [4] - Daemon [16] - Griffon [8] - Manticore [14] Narn, Mage Hunter of Ios [0(6)] Mage Hunter Strike Force (max) [16] - Eiryss, Mage Hunter Commander [6] - Soulless Escort (2) [2]
In case someone missed it, I think that Phantom hunter is a trap spell.
* Thyron doesn't have any anti-warmachine tech. Warbeasts also tend to have higher DEF than warjacks. The list also has Nayl, the designated frenzy target.
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farau
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 7
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Post by farau on May 25, 2017 7:32:43 GMT
I think tanan must be trolling us =)
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Post by Kallas on May 25, 2017 12:28:09 GMT
In case someone missed it, I think that Phantom hunter is a trap spell. That is, quite simply, stupid. Either that or you should define your statement more clearly. Phantom Hunter is excellent, even if just for bypassing cover/concealment and even more so given the relevance of cloud walls.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on May 25, 2017 13:42:25 GMT
On some level Tanan is trolling us, and obviously so. That's what makes his 'stone soup' armies so entertaining.
His essential insight is correct, though, because a model's nature as a piece on the board is more important than its stats, weapons, or abilities. It doesn't make all that much difference if you take a Griffon or a Chimera if you're just trying to bodyblock your opponent with a light myrmidon, harass a flank, or make a single boosted attack. It matters even less what sort of model you use to control the enemy's advance direct his movements in a certain way.
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tanan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 209
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Post by tanan on May 26, 2017 10:29:41 GMT
In case someone missed it, I think that Phantom hunter is a trap spell. That is, quite simply, stupid. Either that or you should define your statement more clearly. My pleasure. While Phantom Hunter is useful on an occasion when Kaelyssa casts it on herself, the spell has some serious limitations when applied to her battlegroup warjacks. The main issues that I have with the spell are: - RoS warjacks have a horrible ranged dmg output compared to any other warmachine faction. Even Cryx has better shooty jacks. We can build a shooty list, but that list relies on our awesome infantry to do the shooting. - Phantom Hunter doesn't really increase the warjack's ranged output. It bypasses some shooting defenses, but high ground and all-too-abundant shield guard can still ruin your day. Oh and our jacks have RAT5. - Casting phantom hunter on a warjack costs 2 focus and the spell has RNG of 6. That focus could be used to upkeep spells, camp, cast blur, refuge, banishing ward, backlash and most importantly spend on Kaelyssa to shoot some round-ears with truesight RAT7 with several powerful badtouch effects.
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Post by Kallas on May 26, 2017 12:19:03 GMT
That's not a trap though. That's it being a situational spell/ability, like the vast majority of spells/abilities in the game.
Ignoring LOS is very useful for knocking out key models that are otherwise hidden, being concealed, or getting to them would expose your own model too much.
Ignoring concealment/cover is very useful. Often walls/rubble are used to protect a key solo, or as a staging point in a scenario. Dropping those defensive buffs is great.
It's simply not a trap. Could those Focus points go towards upkeeping, camping, reloading, etc? Sure. But that's what resource management is (aka, the entire Focus system.)
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Post by mberks69 on May 27, 2017 0:53:55 GMT
Nothing to see here folks. Sure, Narn can get you out of a scrape, no doubt that is true, and easy to agree with.
Of course Griffons are the light jack to take. Reach is invaluable when you yourself want to tie up your opponent. Add higher arm, pathfinder and MaT on the charge. That MaT happens to be more focus efficient because you are less likely to need to boost.
Talking nonsense is silly, especially if less experienced players take you seriously. On the other hand, they will quickly find the folly of following this advice.
Play Infiltrators with Thyron. And go right at your opponent. That's the point.
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